all-a-muchy

  • Thread starter Thread starter Neen
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let me try to quell this: building trails or obstacles, however talented you may be at said profession is illegal. if you would like to participate in a TM, i'm sure the good folks at JORBA would be more than happy to have you. in the meantime, i'm with sean on this one. i pay taxes, and i work hard. the last thing i want is to have my free time ruined by someone who thought it would be cool to build a kicker in the middle of KVSP or MD.

mtbers we will lose this battle every single time.
 
anrothar said:
if someone falls and gets paralyzed on a marked trail, they'll be easy to find. if someone falls and get's paralyzed on a trail that only a handful of riders know about, it could be a very long time till they are found. finding a trail and building it are two very different things. there are any number of legitimate reasons to be off trail on foot at any given moment. like, had to pee; got lost, decided to take the straightest line in correct direction back; somehow spotted the trail from a legal trail; was scouting out a new trail under the legal auspices of the group(s) permitted to do such; was hunting and came upon it.....

i'm up for a level headed debate if you can handle it. :getsome:
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never ride alone. pretty simple concept then you dont have to worry if someone finds you. peeing in the woods is illegal in state parks. jorba seems like a cool organization but builds xc trails. look at states like washington, you can apply for a pass that allows you to ride the back country and i bet theres lots of freeride stuff there. people have built up some insane north shore style trails. really high drops, narrow bridges, and steep trails. you ride at your own risk, if you dont like it dont ride it. the trails are made from wood, deadfall. no one cuts down a tree to make a feature. i think if someone recycles the enviroments waste there is no harm. digging dirt up for dirt jumps is fine too its just moving dirt. not stealing it, with the summers we have in nj ferns and other plants will quickly grow where noone rides. illegal or not we need more freeride stuff in new jersey. we need a freeride park, where people can build. if you build it you must record it. have regular tm and take down unsafe features. should we stop cutting our lawn or building houses? it hurts the enviroment. as most can see we have a bear problem its not the bears coming out of the woods were going into the woods were hurting the enviroment. we have industrial plants on major rivers were hurting the enviroment. our lives rely on plastics and other petrolium based products. not good for the enviroment. most of our bikes are shipped from tiawan, and the comonants are shipped from china im sure thats not safe for the enviroment.

before we start saying we hurt the enviroment with making a small offshoot from some already nice singletrack we should look at how bad we are for the enviroment.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyAz_OZG95I
take a look at this video, does the enviroment look like its messed up?

if anyone else is up for a debate and has instant messanger hit me up. vernonrider90
 
pinkshirtphotos said:
i guess i can sort of chime in here. illegal trail building sucks, and will stop others from riding the parks but coming from the dh world i know plenty of illegal riding spots, and people who make them. but they are kept on the dl. is it wrong to have fun freeride features in ringwood? the trails they are on are not legal, and off the map. hell some of them the only way to get to is drop in from the trail. and the people riding them arent going to get in over their head because they know they are looking for. they are most likely with someone who trusts them to keep it quiet and knows how good they are at riding. if its a feature on an xc loop i say boo but if it is off the beaten path in a huge state park then i dont see any harm. i think ratting out spots where people have fun is pretty dick, even if it is illegal.
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The way I see it, the risk:reward ratio doesn't justify it. In terms of legality, or simply being a socially conscious mountain biker, well obviously you have no ground to stand on. So you're coming from a "no harm done" done perspective. Well your group has no risk, and all the reward. Our group has all the risk, and no reward. Nothing, I mean nothing, can solidify your ground that it's a dick move to rat it out. You can't pull out the "it's not cool" reasoning. Not getting into the injury factor, but from a pure viewpoint of who gains and who loses, it's a no brainer to report it.

Quite frankly, potentially fucking it up for all of us who play by the rules so we can all ride the trails qualifies more as "pretty dick" as far as I can tell. Basically what you have to accept is what I would call "the rules". If you get nabbed, well you knew the rules. If you do 80 and get a ticket, you can't be pissed because you knew the rules. At least that's the way I see it.
 
as far as "never ride alone". you might as well also say, "never fall and you wont get hurt". it's just not going to happen.

two words regarding washington and new jersey. population density. i'm not denying the need for freeride environments to exist legally, but risk management is a huge issue, especially in a state this dense and sue-happy.


building the trails illegally is going to hurt everyone else who rides bikes, ie: most of the riders out there by far. it WILL cause a knee-jerk reaction by the authorities who will threaten to, and possibly actually ban mtn bikes.

what's the difference between building a series of wooden drops/ladders/skinnies and building a little cabin and squatting in it? it doesn't look as natural as a trail, which is one of the biggest obstacles you are going to face in trying to get freeride stunts accepted. if you were to build them as just trails, with the drops all being off ledges, and the log rides/skinnies being mostly just hewn logs, you would be alot closer to what most people would be willing to accept. but again, fact is a fact, building them illegally, especially on our limited park lands in new jersey, will undoubtedly hurt access for all mtbers over the long term.

i doubt there will ever be a public facility with a 'build as you please' policy. that would just be waaaaay too much of a risk. i work in municipal recreation and have taken several classes on risk management.
 
the impact on the environment, whether or not someone gets hurt or caught peeing isn't the question. we live in a society where we live by the "rule of law". we can't pick and choose which laws to break because we can justify our actions one way or another. blazing new trails within a state park system is illegal unless of course, you go through the proper channels...period. if you have a problem with the law, and consider many hikers or even horse back riders might also disagree with the law, band together and do something legal about it.. don't disregard because you don't agree.
 
normZurawski said:
The way I see it, the risk:reward ratio doesn't justify it. In terms of legality, or simply being a socially conscious mountain biker, well obviously you have no ground to stand on. So you're coming from a "no harm done" done perspective. Well your group has no risk, and all the reward. Our group has all the risk, and no reward. Nothing, I mean nothing, can solidify your ground that it's a dick move to rat it out. You can't pull out the "it's not cool" reasoning. Not getting into the injury factor, but from a pure viewpoint of who gains and who loses, it's a no brainer to report it.

Quite frankly, potentially fucking it up for all of us who play by the rules so we can all ride the trails qualifies more as "pretty dick" as far as I can tell. Basically what you have to accept is what I would call "the rules". If you get nabbed, well you knew the rules. If you do 80 and get a ticket, you can't be pissed because you knew the rules. At least that's the way I see it.
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i think this is the problem in mountain biking, you say "your group" and "our group" what makes the groups different? im going to be hash here dont take this to heart and dont judge me on this comment. xc people are pussys at times, ive seen races where riders think its faster to dismount and run down a rock garden then it is to ride it. i doubt most people who are spandex clad ever have hit a drop more then 2 feet, how could they when no one can legally build them? its wrong for a downhiller/freerider to build something aggressive, but it seems to be ok for xc people to make easy trails. a technical climb is ok and can be fun, a fast decent is even more fun i think most would agree on that. adding a few small jumps, and drops that progress should be ok? pushing your limits shouldn't always be who can huck the highest, nor should it be who can ride the longest. it should be becoming a better rider all around. take jess, from the little i have read/ know about her she rode xc for years, and is good at it too. this year she hit diablo and said it has changed her riding and she is better. why do you have to hit diablo to become a "better rider" when riding in a state park should be just as easy. i think in a place like jungle habitat some freeride features should be built. but it seems like some people are afraid of what they dont know.
 
The main issue is that the parks say that you cannot build those stunts. End of story.

Buy your own private property and build what you like. Anything that is built illegally will be pointed out to the proper authority by me as well. The reasoning why has already been pointed out many times in this debate. If trails and features are not built legally the parks will get closed to all biking.
 
ok, ok, lets reel this in.

if you guys want to start another thread about the hows and whys of who builds what, who's a ***** and who's not so be it. while there are some good points on both sides, this is degenerating into a "winter shoes" type thread or a bash session on mtbr. this thread is/was about the all-a-muchy being canceled.

we've beaten the points home now:

collectively, it seems, we are all in favor of enjoying the liberties that we're allowed in this great state and/or country to have the luxury of riding bikes for fun.

collectively, it seems, we are all pretty much in agreement that doing things that are not allowed, aka "against the rules" is bad, whatever they may be.

collectively, it seems, no one is in favor of being denied trail access.

collectively, it seems, we are all in favor of having fun.

the folks at JORBA and the folks who do TMs are working hard to maintain our good name as "mountain bikers". there are times and places for everything, and at this point, free ride type features are only allowed (AFAIK) at diablo. until there is a monumental shift in thinking within the state and local organizations, it's going to remain that way. if you disrespect the rules our access will be denied.
 
one thing i can agree with you on pinkshirt is that we should all stop the "our group- their group" mentality. It takes all groups, xc mtber's, downhillers, atv'ers, hikers, and horseback riders, to push back at development or closures in our parks. Without a collective effort from all trail users we lose strength in numbers and the overall message that our parks are valuable part of our society.

still looking for our Sunday Wawayanda ride pink...?
 
pinkshirtphotos said:
i think this is the problem in mountain biking, you say "your group" and "our group" what makes the groups different? im going to be hash here dont take this to heart and dont judge me on this comment. xc people are pussys at times, ive seen races where riders think its faster to dismount and run down a rock garden then it is to ride it. i doubt most people who are spandex clad ever have hit a drop more then 2 feet, how could they when no one can legally build them? its wrong for a downhiller/freerider to build something aggressive, but it seems to be ok for xc people to make easy trails. a technical climb is ok and can be fun, a fast decent is even more fun i think most would agree on that. adding a few small jumps, and drops that progress should be ok? pushing your limits shouldn't always be who can huck the highest, nor should it be who can ride the longest. it should be becoming a better rider all around. take jess, from the little i have read/ know about her she rode xc for years, and is good at it too. this year she hit diablo and said it has changed her riding and she is better. why do you have to hit diablo to become a "better rider" when riding in a state park should be just as easy. i think in a place like jungle habitat some freeride features should be built. but it seems like some people are afraid of what they dont know.
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You avoided my point. I'm not going to judge you. But you need to address my arguments, specifically the risk/reward stuff. You're so off track here I can't remotely see that as a refutation of anything I said. I'm not arguing the merits of if we should or shouldn't build that stuff - it's entirely immaterial. The argument would work the same if downhill features were legal and "easy" trails were not.
 
pinkshirtphotos said:
i doubt most people who are spandex clad ever have hit a drop more then 2 feet, how could they when no one can legally build them?
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come for a ride with me and i'll happily prove you wrong on the spandex/drop off account. there are plenty of trails with 2' + natural dropoffs on them.
 
bonefishjake said:
collectively, it seems, we are all pretty much in agreement that doing things that are not allowed, aka "against the rules" is bad, whatever they may be.
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But we don't. PSP is arguing that he should be able to get away with doing things against the rules.

joanqs said:
one thing i can agree with you on pinkshirt is that we should all stop the "our group- their group" mentality.
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I can't agree. People who do things illegally cannot be grouped with the people who do it legally. They're essentially adversaries in this struggle. Guys like Mergs has to bust his balls to cover for the bad PR that illegal trail building
causes.

These points need to be addressed. The guy on motionbased who posts all his rides at SoMo? The wrong group. Building ilegal freeride elements in parks that threaten all the trails? The wrong group. I'm not going to subscribe to the kum-ba-ya theory of biking if I know one of "the gang" is knowingly doing something that could screw it up for all of us and doesn't care about the consequences.
 
Norm did you actually read my post? are your emotions getting the best of you? You missed my point completely, please re-read and then apologize.

love and kisses
joan
 
joanqs

i think im still up for a ride, im not into riding fast ill be riding sunday on my downhill bike, the sunday. but ill hike that seatpost up and give it my best shot. the only time i have problems with hills are if they are technical. meet at the boat house? ill also bring a camera.
 
joanqs said:
Norm did you actually read my post? are your emotions getting the best of you? You missed my point completely, please re-read and then apologize.

love and kisses
joan
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Hello dear! I'm sorry, I was in the flow, I couldn't help it. These things just spill out. Can you forgive me?

Incidentally, and since this thread has gone beyond awry from it's initial topic, a post you made recently may be the single best post I personally have ever read here. I'll leave it at that for now and come to a better conclusion in time.

When do I get a Wawayanda tour?

Smooches and hugs,
Norm
 
ryderX said:
The unauthorized trails at KVSP will soon be blocked off and posted as such, per Rocky the park superintendent. To say that he's p***** off would be an understatement. God help the people responsible if he ever catches them in the act.
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I reported them to the office within 36 hrs of their "full" opening and explained that time was of the essence. I said i would basically live in the woods till the a-hole came back to help them stop this BS.Rocky wasn't avail so I left my cell # and said Action Outfitters was willing to supply a reward for catching the bastard. Never heard a word and a week later he came into the shop to drop off bochures and said nothing( i wasn't in).I can only hope that having a dirty mtbr reporting illegals helped a tiny bit but it doesn't seem like they want help.Again, if you're reading this you f!@#, I'm still just a few steps behind you.......................
 
pinkshirtphotos said:
i guess i can sort of chime in here. illegal trail building sucks, and will stop others from riding the parks but coming from the dh world i know plenty of illegal riding spots, and people who make them. but they are kept on the dl. is it wrong to have fun freeride features in ringwood? the trails they are on are not legal, and off the map. hell some of them the only way to get to is drop in from the trail. and the people riding them arent going to get in over their head because they know they are looking for. they are most likely with someone who trusts them to keep it quiet and knows how good they are at riding. if its a feature on an xc loop i say boo but if it is off the beaten path in a huge state park then i dont see any harm. i think ratting out spots where people have fun is pretty dick, even if it is illegal.
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I'm a dirt jumper at heart. Illegal on private property,fine. On a publically owned state park, no f'n way
 
For those of you who would like the phone numbers for your favorite parks:

http://www.jorba.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=390&highlight=park+phone+numbers

If the numbers have changed, please contact the jorba chapter head and they will help you find the right number.

Nice to see so much passion about our public trails. Please remember that these are "public". It would be great if it were just these bikers and those bikers, but there are other users and enviromental issues involved here. Hikers, equestrians, cultural heritage (historical sites), endagered and protected species are just a few that have tied hands on building trails in Ringwood. Getting permission to build a trail or a stunt is more complicated than you care to know, and will ultimately be a lot easier if all bike parties involved, pool together and collectively work together.

IMO, skip the forum whining and voice yourself directly to those in charge. We have some great riding spots here in NJ that are worth fighting for, and for starts, I think we all can agree on that.
 
hardtale70 said:
I'm a dirt jumper at heart. Illegal on private property,fine. On a publically owned state park, no f'n way
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Just to make sure I didn't misunderstand this - you're saying you're ok with people building jumps/riding on private property without permission, but not in the parks?
 
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