Trail Maintenance - don't do this

Tim

Tim

aka sptimmy43
Ian F said:
What I don't understand about the second picture is "Why?" The log has been cut for the "B Line". So why does the log have anything in front of/after it? I'd remove all of that and make the log an actual challenge for practicing good log-over techniques.
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Why? For variety. For fun. What you can't see in the picture is the punchy little climb leading up to it to the left. It is actually pretty challenging to clean the obstacle going up. Is the log ramp needed when going down? No, but it's pretty f'n fun, especially at speed. That trail has a couple other logs of similar size that are exactly as you describe. The trail is clear yet the log remains as a B line.
 
1speed

1speed

Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
I can't claim to know a ton about trail building/maintenance. The one thing that seems odd to me is how some areas continue to use water bars - I thought they'd been dismissed years ago, but (as anyone who's ridden through Houston Meadow in The Wiss knows) you still see them quite frequently. Why is that?

Another thing I've been thinking about more lately is what should be done with trees that fall. @stb222 mentioned that when he comes across build-ups on fallen trees and the like, he throws sticks in different directions and if I think about it, I like that idea. Fallen trees and branches create entire ecosystems in forested areas - they're the primary source of food and shelter for countless other living things, from fungi to insects to birds to mice to you-name-it, and as they rot they feed the soil which keeps the other trees around them healthy. So while I wouldn't ever advocate just leaving an impassable fallen tree laying across an established trail, I do like the idea of moving it in ways that allow it still function as that basis for forest health. I imagine tossing branches randomly around helps distribute the effect. The one thing I'd strongly argue against is carrying the larger cut pieces of trees out of the forested area. I see that now and then and it's disappointing - I see sections of a trunk that have been cut away piled up at trail heads or I see maintenance trucks full of trunk cuttings driving out of park areas. I'd argue that leaving them there, even if they're moved away from the trail, is a much better way to keep the whole place healthy.
 
Patrick

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
1speed said:
I can't claim to know a ton about trail building/maintenance. The one thing that seems odd to me is how some areas continue to use water bars - I thought they'd been dismissed years ago, but (as anyone who's ridden through Houston Meadow in The Wiss knows) you still see them quite frequently. Why is that?

Another thing I've been thinking about more lately is what should be done with trees that fall. @stb222 mentioned that when he comes across build-ups on fallen trees and the like, he throws sticks in different directions and if I think about it, I like that idea. Fallen trees and branches create entire ecosystems in forested areas - they're the primary source of food and shelter for countless other living things, from fungi to insects to birds to mice to you-name-it, and as they rot they feed the soil which keeps the other trees around them healthy. So while I wouldn't ever advocate just leaving an impassable fallen tree laying across an established trail, I do like the idea of moving it in ways that allow it still function as that basis for forest health. I imagine tossing branches randomly around helps distribute the effect. The one thing I'd strongly argue against is carrying the larger cut pieces of trees out of the forested area. I see that now and then and it's disappointing - I see sections of a trunk that have been cut away piled up at trail heads or I see maintenance trucks full of trunk cuttings driving out of park areas. I'd argue that leaving them there, even if they're moved away from the trail, is a much better way to keep the whole place healthy.
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waterbars are still useful on a trail that can't be bench cut. I saw them installing (replacing) some in Yellowstone a couple years back and asked.
there was no way they were re-routing.
Mounds can be used as an alternative, but not so great for the hikers. Boy, they look like little kickers ;)

Since we don't like unplanned fires in the woods, removal of some of the fuel makes sense. I thought that was the basis of the logging permits?
Agree that sufficient organic supply must be maintained. Hopefully someone is thinking about it.

There is also something quite satisfying about cutting out a trunk so that a quad can't get through! :p
 
Kaleidopete

Kaleidopete

Well-Known Member
Someones work on Laurel trail, wawayanda one side
Dsc05991.jpg


the other side. I don't care for it myself, but I don't intend to change it either, I just deal with it.
Dsc05992.jpg
 
JDurk

JDurk

Well-Known Member
1speed said:
I can't claim to know a ton about trail building/maintenance. The one thing that seems odd to me is how some areas continue to use water bars - I thought they'd been dismissed years ago, but (as anyone who's ridden through Houston Meadow in The Wiss knows) you still see them quite frequently. Why is that?

Another thing I've been thinking about more lately is what should be done with trees that fall. @stb222 mentioned that when he comes across build-ups on fallen trees and the like, he throws sticks in different directions and if I think about it, I like that idea. Fallen trees and branches create entire ecosystems in forested areas - they're the primary source of food and shelter for countless other living things, from fungi to insects to birds to mice to you-name-it, and as they rot they feed the soil which keeps the other trees around them healthy. So while I wouldn't ever advocate just leaving an impassable fallen tree laying across an established trail, I do like the idea of moving it in ways that allow it still function as that basis for forest health. I imagine tossing branches randomly around helps distribute the effect. The one thing I'd strongly argue against is carrying the larger cut pieces of trees out of the forested area. I see that now and then and it's disappointing - I see sections of a trunk that have been cut away piled up at trail heads or I see maintenance trucks full of trunk cuttings driving out of park areas. I'd argue that leaving them there, even if they're moved away from the trail, is a much better way to keep the whole place healthy.
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The Meadows would be so much more fun if reverse grades were used instead of water bars. I assume they were used to keep bikers following the 7mph rule in the Wiss.
 
mtbiker87

mtbiker87

Well-Known Member
Kaleidopete said:
Someones work on Laurel trail, wawayanda one side
View attachment 155806

the other side. I don't care for it myself, but I don't intend to change it either, I just deal with it.
View attachment 155807
Click to expand...
Last time I was back there I had a conversation with a couple guys from the NYNJ trail conference who were hiking through there assessing trail conditions, to report back to the park. We met at the top of Laurel, not far from that very blow down, which I mentioned to them in detail. They said being a road, it's the Park's job to deal with that one. Guess they got right after it huh ?...lol.
 
stilluf

stilluf

Well-Known Member
Kaleidopete said:
What do you think about this, OK, or not?
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Looks fine to me. take the log if you want to, or go around if not.

I don't understand the other "feature" in your other pic. Is there a purpose to all those sticks, other than to lodge in your spokes or cause other mischief? The tree looks small enough to go over, but not sure of relationship to the other substantive log on the other side.
 
Kaleidopete

Kaleidopete

Well-Known Member
stilluf said:
Looks fine to me. take the log if you want to, or go around if not.

I don't understand the other "feature" in your other pic. Is there a purpose to all those sticks, other than to lodge in your spokes or cause other mischief? The tree looks small enough to go over, but not sure of relationship to the other substantive log on the other side.
Click to expand...
I didn't understand the "feature" either, someone must have thought it was a good idea, I just am reporting what I saw,
 
Ian F

Ian F

Well-Known Member
Yeah... that is the type of log I'd probably jump over if given the choice. Oddly enough, I am more inclined to ride over a log that doesn't have ramps built up than one that does. It does depend on the log and the trail, tho... if the approach and landing are good, I'll jump over the log without using the ramps. Depending on how I feel, I can usually get over a log around 2' diameter.
 
pygmypony

pygmypony

Well-Known Member
Tim said:
Here are my personal thoughts, which could be incorrect as far as trail building doctrine are concerned.

I don't see a problem with stacking a few decent sized logs in front of a big logover. By big I mean like 12 inches or more but probably more like 18". For the smaller logovers the stacked logs are in no way needed. You can pretty much just roll the log with minimal skill. The small size diameter branches needed to stack in front of smaller logs are fragile and don't hold up for very long. They don't stay put and become a liability in short order.

As someone who has a pretty practical bunny hop in my bag of tricks I can say one of my biggest pet peeves is coming to a small logover and having to deal with a bunch of small broken sticks laying all over the trail on both sides of the log at a time when I would really want clean trail on both sides. This is a prime example of totally unnecessary and, in my opinion, detrimental stick piling as this log can pretty much be rolled with minimal skill.
View attachment 155741

Now here is an example of a sturdy logover that does warrant the stacking of a few smaller logs on each side. This log could only be hopped by exceptionally skilled riders so the logs are a help. The logs used are also of a sufficient size and weight as to not move when the obstacle is ridden.
View attachment 155742

Again, just my $.02 and not based on any actual trail building doctrine.
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missed this thread last week...but very much subscribed!

first, FWIW, the picture #2 "feature" is definitely one of my favorite parts of Edith Stevens/Tingley Woods...as @Tim noted, going up requires a hard "punch" to clear it, coming down over the ramp is just fun...you get your cake and eat it too. also, tim failed to mention that feature was his handiwork! again, it's super-awesome!

as for the rest of this thread, i've been amateur trail building here in Edison for about 3 years now. i've learned a lot by observing what works/doesn't work at other trail systems, hand on trial and error, googling/youtubing, and some actual reputable reading material (see below)! water/drainage management has been my primary focus as we are literally in the middle of the swamp. and i agree with @Patrick, sticks just don't work (they simply don't last, and can exacerbate the issue), rock armor works well, when done right (i have not come close to perfecting that, and getting 'material' is a challenge...but my skills are improving)...reroutes can be deceiving, as sometimes that line that looks drier, is only drier because it hasn't been rutted up yet! i've recently been "dabbling" in boardwalks, with some pretty good luck so far!

this has been my go to trail building bible

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here's my first two boardwalks (well, one is sort of a bridge i guess)...both built with locally sourced, downed trees for the supports...

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stb222

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
BananaFred said:
that looks great. next time add an incline to make people earn it.
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Make people earn getting up onto a bridge?

In other news, this area is in a bench cut area of Neshaminy (on the Mexican bow tie) and there is a rock on the uphill side that just leaks water. The water was pooling so I opened up the downhill side and did some armoring and bench improvements to get through the wet season and let it dry out. Unfortunately on Sunday, a moto made a rut right though the middle and around the corner and the water followed. Fart noise. In any case, will re-armor the drain once it dries out a bit.
93CF573C-6A4A-4CDD-A47A-CE3D52CDA706.jpeg
F4B39930-1000-4120-9DF9-FE00D20B4CE0.jpeg
 
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