Hartshorne/Huber Conditions

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Perfect conditions today.

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Karate Monkey

Well-Known Member
Rode today after a sprinkling overnight, and the park was in excellent condition. A tiny bit of standing water on leaves on lower GT, but that's it. Tree roots were slightly slick, but otherwise okay.

If it barely rains overnight, get it.
 

don

Well-Known Member
The water tower is amazing. My buddy wouldn't shut up about it. :) "Dude, it flows like Kingdom Trails."

That's funny as I had some people DM me on IG that were pretty pissed about us making the trail a "flow line". Iggy wanted to keep the original route of that part of GT and make certain changes to help with the erosion which I thought was going to be way more work and harder overall. My first thought was to shit can some of the steeper sections and cut a couple more switchbacks instead (which is how the newer trails are made in Stowe, VT and I think is what they do in KT too).

But in the end I really like how it's coming out. There are still a lot of the classic Hartshorne pieces on that section (the all rock area in the middle then followed by the narrow section with 2 stepping logs) And the main tread is 90% of what is was - less sand and bomb holes. I still think it has the Hartshorne "feel" but with some modern stuff thrown in here and there.

Where it mellows out pitch wise there are some rollers and berms to continue to help with water control but also give some flavor. I don't know about you guys but I hate plowing thru 6" of sand and would much rather push off a little berm or roller dip any day of the week.

We had some nasty storms the past few weeks and it's holding up pretty well which is hard given the pitch and material content at Hartshorne. During the TM's we see a LOT of sand on the side of the trail in our drains and not on it.
 

Karate Monkey

Well-Known Member
That's funny as I had some people DM me on IG that were pretty pissed about us making the trail a "flow line". Iggy wanted to keep the original route of that part of GT and make certain changes to help with the erosion which I thought was going to be way more work and harder overall. My first thought was to shit can some of the steeper sections and cut a couple more switchbacks instead (which is how the newer trails are made in Stowe, VT and I think is what they do in KT too).

But in the end I really like how it's coming out. There are still a lot of the classic Hartshorne pieces on that section (the all rock area in the middle then followed by the narrow section with 2 stepping logs) And the main tread is 90% of what is was - less sand and bomb holes. I still think it has the Hartshorne "feel" but with some modern stuff thrown in here and there.

Where it mellows out pitch wise there are some rollers and berms to continue to help with water control but also give some flavor. I don't know about you guys but I hate plowing thru 6" of sand and would much rather push off a little berm or roller dip any day of the week.

We had some nasty storms the past few weeks and it's holding up pretty well which is hard given the pitch and material content at Hartshorne. During the TM's we see a LOT of sand on the side of the trail in our drains and not on it.

I could kinda see how someone isn't happy about losing a technical climb, but the Buttermilk steps, and the heart-exploding devil's elbow climb (plus the pop onto the rock, not around) are still, hands down, the hardest climbs if you stay in the middle of the trail instead of using the cheater lines. The water tower, even before the work, was in the top 10, but I can think of 4 others, off the top of my head, that were harder to clean if you used the 'correct' line.

Two, you should remind them that they're complaining that there is less danger of a face-breaking endo. Is that what they want?

I mean, I'm not going to complain that someone is bothering to maintain the park, but what's stopping them from taking the original line, other than they have to look at the well-manicured trail?
 
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don

Well-Known Member
I could kinda see how someone isn't happy about losing a technical climb, but the Buttermilk steps, and the heart-exploding devil's elbow climb (plus the pop onto the rock, not around) are still, hands down, the hardest climbs if you stay in the middle of the trail instead of using the cheater lines. The water tower, even before the work, was in the top 10, but I can think of 4 others, off the top of my head, that were harder to clean if you used the 'correct' line.

Two, you should remind them that they're complaining that there is less danger of a face-breaking endo. Is that what they want?

I mean, I'm not going to complain that someone is bothering to maintain the park, but what's stopping them from taking the original line, other than they have to look at the well-manicured trail?

Really great points.

The DM's I got were about going downhill on that trail not up. So I think those people liked landing in bomb holes and riding thru sand traps :shrug:

I'm not the best climber so I can see someone being upset on it getting less technical in that regard. But that being said I'm guessing those folks are in the 0.5% that are that capable technical riding and conditioning wise to make it up the old Grand Tour water tour section before. And there are only 2 sections that were "tamed" in the middle/correct line (which makes a difference like you said). The elevation and pitch is still there so if anything the Strava times get better?

Overall I think people have really enjoyed the changes. There seems to be more trafffic thru there then when we started. I actually got a DM from an ex-pro rider in the area that seemed really stoked on the work. This guy can wall ride trees and back flip random rocks and bar spin drops so he has no problem riding whatever comes in front of him but seemed to enjoy the changes to that trail.
 

mfennell

Well-Known Member
That's funny as I had some people DM me on IG that were pretty pissed about us making the trail a "flow line".

Noone is ever happy. We're lucky to have you and @pooriggy after all these years.

I've only been back once but the top is epic. Just after you cross the fireroad, there's a little feature on the left, then a hop over the water bar with the clean landing area. Dreams. :)
 

pooriggy

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I appreciate all that @pooriggy and @don have done. I do miss the natural, eroded stuff and roots however. Not a log over in the place anymore. At one point Hartshorne was actually difficult to clear everything. Now it’s difficult to not clear everything.
I'm gonna miss you Dave.

When did you say you where going to get the fuck out of here?
:p
 

don

Well-Known Member
I appreciate all that @pooriggy and @don have done. I do miss the natural, eroded stuff and roots however. Not a log over in the place anymore. At one point Hartshorne was actually difficult to clear everything. Now it’s difficult to not clear everything.

We have worked on just one section of Grand Tour so I'm not sure where you are saying there is not a log over in the place or its difficult to not clear everything is due to us. Truth be told Iggy and I put a lot of thought into that trail to keep as much of the classic Hartshorne feel. We kept all the log/water bars which if anyone has worked with me knows I fucking hate those things as they create more headaches than anything and they look like shit.

One thing about eroded trail is that it deposits sand in the low spots. Not just a skim coat but there were sections on lower GT were we removed 6-8" of it. If that's your thing, ok, but I feel the sand deposits take away so much from a trail riding well. And being safe.

2 other factors: Trails that were new rake and ride built and natural are now 20 years old. And the use of the trails on modern bikes have created more of an open style. Lines are burned in now that wouldn't be there back in the 90's when I rode it on a Rhygin with 80mm Judy 26x2.2 tires and 150mm Control Tech stem with narrow bars. I know I ride lines way differently now. A modern bike allows you to carry speed and have way more control than even bikes 5 years ago so a tight corner will open up and a fall line will have some more curves in it. It wasn't Iggy and me dumbing things down but actual trail users taking a natural route. I know of at least 3 sections on the other side of GT alone that that has happened.

PS - on one TM on GT I actually brought back the original trail line - which is more fall line and tighter between the turns where it lays. I've not tried to climb or descend it but it's there on looker's left just before the very rocky section if you are going up it. Larry and I made an organic middle bed to slow down water flow, transplanting some small growth and moving organics in there. It was a pain in the ass on the 90 degree morning he and did it but I wanted to bring that line in as an option.
 

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