Cars, it's electric! Do Do Do

shrpshtr325 said:
yes an ICE vehicle produces less carbon emissions to be produced, and the electric is less in operation. this is comparing how many miles need to be driven for them to produce equal amounts. if you are doing it 'for the environment' leasing an EV is NOT saving carbon emissions. (<36k miles, assuming an average mix of energy supplied)



Batteries last a longer time now, but im still not convinced that they outlast an engine/transmission which is maintained to any degree. You dont hear about too many engine failures in modern cars (200k+ is very common for an engine and transmission these days. Not sure what the mileage lifespan is for the battery pack, but iirc this study doesnt use battery replacement as a factor in the overall emissions.

If i read it correctly this study is only looking at carbon emissions, not taking into account any other pollution byproducts of mining the minerals for batteries or any other electronics in the cars (on both sides of the line)
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The batteries 100% do not outlast, nor do they come close to the life expectancy of a combustion engine with routine maintenance. You can't put a expected mileage on the batteries because every little factor including air temp, humidity, driver input, length of driving sessions, etc all affect battery life.

I'm totally anti-all electric cars and especially trucks. I do believe that hybrids are the sweet spot, especially as batteries become more compact and powerful. Those batteries last 200k+ miles, which I consider acceptable.
 
Mahnken said:
It was 5k when we got it, literally the month before it ended. Edit: and it was for cars under $55k. Looks like that was lowered to under $45k. And $2k rebate for $45k to$50k. Our model Y was just shy of $55k, and they've gotten way more expensive since then. Does Tesla even make a car that would qualify now?
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Yeah, we tried to order a Mach-e and its sold out but won't be under 45k. I think the Bolt and Leaf may be the remainder under. Hyundai's aren't cheap
 
Santapez said:
I can tell Mercedes is going all-in on electric. I can tell by how they installed a car charger a few years back and always make sure it's blocked an inaccessible.

View attachment 192576
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Just to make sure... You talking about a battery tender that you might keep it stealth so you have more trunk space?🤔 Or you talking about something different?
 
GTCHAMPION1 said:
Just to make sure... You talking about a battery tender that you might keep it stealth so you have more trunk space?🤔 Or you talking about something different?
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There's a ChargePoint electric car charging station behind those cars. They installed it, it's working but they completely block it from being used.

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mtn said:
The batteries 100% do not outlast, nor do they come close to the life expectancy of a combustion engine with routine maintenance. You can't put a expected mileage on the batteries because every little factor including air temp, humidity, driver input, length of driving sessions, etc all affect battery life.

I'm totally anti-all electric cars and especially trucks. I do believe that hybrids are the sweet spot, especially as batteries become more compact and powerful. Those batteries last 200k+ miles, which I consider acceptable.
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Gale Banks has mentioned on his podcast that hybrids are the sweet spot too. I was listening to Farrah's podcast today and he mentioned he is writing an article on hybrids for an upcoming issue of Road and Track () They start talking about hybrids around 1:33 for a few minutes.

I have been "mentally engineering" a hybrid setup on my Land Rover. Pretty much a small tdi engine -> electric generator -> gearbox -> driveshaft to rear straight axle. The generator would take the place of the transfer case and the front axle would hold the electric motors. The electric motors could help on the get up and go and the diesel would power when it's in its most efficient/happy range of load and mpg.

Who knows if it's possible but it's fun to think about while driving around. I know there is something similar but with the electric motor in the rear axle for some full size light duty trucks.
 
I really like the idea of electric vehicles, but I still don't think they really make sense for me. That said, I was recently reading about the Toyota RAV4 Prime. It has an EV range of 42 miles, which is obviously an order of magnitude less than most EV's. However, it has a normal gas tank that gets 38mpg combined once you run out of juice. I think most of the driving I do is under 42 miles round trip, but the once or twice a year that I go on a road trip I don't have to worry about charging anywhere. It seems like the best of both worlds. I've been casually considering a new car recently and was mostly sold on either a Civic Hatchback or an Outback before reading about the RAV4 Prime. In any event, I'll probably wait a year or two since My Honda Fit is still doing fine, and the market kinda sucks for buying a new car still. On the other hand, my wife recently got a new car and I'm both envious and impulsive.
 
JimN said:
I really like the idea of electric vehicles, but I still don't think they really make sense for me. That said, I was recently reading about the Toyota RAV4 Prime. It has an EV range of 42 miles, which is obviously an order of magnitude less than most EV's. However, it has a normal gas tank that gets 38mpg combined once you run out of juice. I think most of the driving I do is under 42 miles round trip, but the once or twice a year that I go on a road trip I don't have to worry about charging anywhere. It seems like the best of both worlds. I've been casually considering a new car recently and was mostly sold on either a Civic Hatchback or an Outback before reading about the RAV4 Prime. In any event, I'll probably wait a year or two since My Honda Fit is still doing fine, and the market kinda sucks for buying a new car still. On the other hand, my wife recently got a new car and I'm both envious and impulsive.
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Few points:

-I think Rick has a Rav4 Prime and loves it. Don't let that sway your opinion of one negatively... :)
-You'll need to wait a year or two anyway, I think it is impossible to get those Rav4 Prime's now.
-When we went shopping for a Rav4 we almost passed it up because when we checked to see if a bike without a front wheel fit in the back, big failure not enough room. Turns out it was a hybrid model and the seats are higher and don't fold up as flat. So....take that into consideration.
-The hybrid version is much more expensive and has more components to fail. Same maintenance as a gasoline car, complexity of a hybrid.
-The one or two times a year you go on a road trip, could you swap cars with your wife? If so then the electric car could work. And if not is it worth just renting a car with unlimited mileage for those trips?
 
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My 2017 Hybrid could go about 16 miles on a charge which cost by todays prices $2.10.
It got about 30mpg on gas, which would cost me about $2.25 by todays prices.
So a lot depends on the KWH charge vs. the Gas charge.
 
Santapez said:
I think it is impossible to get those Rav4 Prime's now.
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Yeah it seems to be about a six month wait, plus they only seem to be shipping cars with all of the options to inflate the price. You get the $7500 tax rebate until October, but I think it'll probably get renewed for next year.

Santapez said:
Turns out it was a hybrid model and the seats are higher and don't fold up as flat. So....take that into consideration.
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I do really like having the bike in the car, but I think a hitch rack would be fine. My car is always so gross inside, can't imagine why.

Santapez said:
The hybrid version is much more expensive and has more components to fail. Same maintenance as a gasoline car, complexity of a hybrid.
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The tax rebate mostly offsets a good portion of the cost, but that's true.

Santapez said:
The one or two times a year you go on a road trip, could you swap cars with your wife?
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Her car gets like 20mpg, and if I put a bike in it she would murder me.

To be honest, I don't need an EV. I drive like 7-8000 miles per year. It might be closer to 10k if I had a nicer car that we took places instead of taking the wife's, especially now that her car is a gas guzzler.

Kaleidopete said:
So a lot depends on the KWH charge vs. the Gas charge.
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Also a fair point, I would be charging at home, not at work, so it's not like it's free.
 
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don said:
Gale Banks has mentioned on his podcast that hybrids are the sweet spot too. I was listening to Farrah's podcast today and he mentioned he is writing an article on hybrids for an upcoming issue of Road and Track () They start talking about hybrids around 1:33 for a few minutes.

I have been "mentally engineering" a hybrid setup on my Land Rover. Pretty much a small tdi engine -> electric generator -> gearbox -> driveshaft to rear straight axle. The generator would take the place of the transfer case and the front axle would hold the electric motors. The electric motors could help on the get up and go and the diesel would power when it's in its most efficient/happy range of load and mpg.

Who knows if it's possible but it's fun to think about while driving around. I know there is something similar but with the electric motor in the rear axle for some full size light duty trucks.
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I'd go with small engine driving a generator, all electric motors.
the engine is sized for a little above the average draw, the batteries handle the peaks,
and are recharged when needed while moving, otherwise plug in to recharge.

This gives the smallest engine possible for the task at hand, and it is only needed outside the base range of say 60 (?) miles.

base range is based on the number of batteries - if they don't make them part of the structure of the car, they
could also be ordered as packs. problem is carrying unnecessary energy (batteries) is more expensive than lugging gas.
so it is a balancing act.
 
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I think Hybrids are the worst idea, especially plug-in hybrids with ridiculous e-only range. WTF? Just drive an efficient ICE until electric make sense for your needs. By then, hopefully Hydrogen will make foothold, as the delusion that we can make/support/recycle all these batteries is hogwash.

:)
 
A friend just finished a frame up restoration of a 68 Firebird. He's now looking for another one to restore, but it will be electric since he's working for a company that does these conversions.
 
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Patrick said:
I'd go with small engine driving a generator, all electric motors.
the engine is sized for a little above the average draw, the batteries handle the peaks,
and are recharged when needed while moving, otherwise plug in to recharge.

This gives the smallest engine possible for the task at hand, and it is only needed outside the base range of say 60 (?) miles.

base range is based on the number of batteries - if they don't make them part of the structure of the car, they
could also be ordered as packs. problem is carrying unnecessary energy (batteries) is more expensive than lugging gas.
so it is a balancing act.
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That seems like it would be the most efficient overall and good (for what I would envision) a modern daily driver/commuter/main vehicle.

For an old 4x4 I feel like an "ebike pedal assist" technology would a great balance of efficiency but that old analog Land Rover feel. The electric motors in the front axle would help in get up and go and passing but the engine would be in it's sweet spot when up to speed. There's not much better than driving my 110 at 40-45 mph on a country road - the turbo diesel is in it's sweet spot and the sounds and feel are just right. It's the getting up to speed from a stand still or maintaining speed when a hill comes up that's not so smooth. And when off road, the front motors would act as if the front axle was locked and can help in traction control level depending on program. The rear could be pretty basic - non-abs E-Locker like it is now. I'm imagining that it would be a good sweet spot for an off road experience.

If you could get the ICE to 40 MPG and able to keep up with modern traffic that would be a big thumbs up.

Bike N Gear said:
A friend just finished a frame up restoration of a 68 Firebird. He's now looking for another one to restore, but it will be electric since he's working for a company that does these conversions.
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That sounds like a very interesting project. But the things that makes a '68 Firebird a cool car are the sounds and feels of an ICE V8. LS swaps have been great because they maintain those sounds and feel. A 1,000 HP LS is common these days and performance wise is more than ample for most. So maybe the next iteration of hot rodding is high MPG instead of higher HP/TQ? I feel like the layout I had mentally for my Land Rover would work well in a RWD muscle car like a Firebird but use an IFS motor layout.

What if you could lay down a rear axle burnout and then flip a switch to get the motors spinning and the fronts light up too?
 
Santapez said:
Few points:

-I think Rick has a Rav4 Prime and loves it. Don't let that sway your opinion of one negatively... :)
-You'll need to wait a year or two anyway, I think it is impossible to get those Rav4 Prime's now.
-When we went shopping for a Rav4 we almost passed it up because when we checked to see if a bike without a front wheel fit in the back, big failure not enough room. Turns out it was a hybrid model and the seats are higher and don't fold up as flat. So....take that into consideration.
-The hybrid version is much more expensive and has more components to fail. Same maintenance as a gasoline car, complexity of a hybrid.
-The one or two times a year you go on a road trip, could you swap cars with your wife? If so then the electric car could work. And if not is it worth just renting a car with unlimited mileage for those trips?
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Nope it's a Highlander Hybrid. Not plug in. But yes we love it. The battery is 10 yr warranty. We got the matching ext warranty as we plan to keep it at least 10 years. And a bike fits in the back easily
 
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