Norm and Utah...Dot the right Thing!
- Thread starter Sevenz
- Start date
gtluke
The Moped
I heard norm discussing it with a few people as part of the discussion about the other dq's
Something to the effect of
I thought I cut too because I didn't see anyone for a while, but my mileage came out to 19.5 and I told the promoter anyway, the dq's were coming it at about 15 mile wise so apparently I didn't.
Something to the effect of
I thought I cut too because I didn't see anyone for a while, but my mileage came out to 19.5 and I told the promoter anyway, the dq's were coming it at about 15 mile wise so apparently I didn't.
agree. we can't lock this.
bradmcnutt
Member
There's been some real heated threads recently. First the TOS reroute thread and now this. Sevenz, you have to be on a fishing trip and just enjoying the responses to your bait. No one can be that self-righteous about mountain biking.
nomad
Member
well said- this sevenz guy needs to move on- you lost man- they beat you, life goes on, its a fun race, have fun and don't take it so seriously-no one really cares anyway. mountain biking is about challenging yourself and hanging with your buddies. They made an honest mistake at very fast speeds and then were honest enough to step up and tell the promotor. Utah can ride like the wind at simple stewart, waywanda or whatever. he is a good guy that enjoys biking so time to back off of these guys and focus on your next race.
Kirt- I feel for you man- but you know how good a rider you are.
Nothing more to do here but move on
ChrisRU
Well-Known Member
Norm and I are USAC officials, or atleast we have little pieces of paper that say so. Norm generally gives me the reigns to make calls like this in a race, or we will bounce our thoughts off each other.
Given the fact that that the distance was so small (no way to rule out it wasn't just a Garmin discrepancy) and there was no way to verify Norm cut the course, there wasn't any other decision to be made. If the race was tighter, there might have been some witnesses and we wouldn't be discussing this. Norm was upfront and honest- but without strong evidence I can't imagine any race promoter DQ'ing a rider, especially race leaders. In the same situation, at the time, I would have made the same call. Its easy to look back now and say things should have been done differently, but you don't have that luxury on race day.
Now if Norm knew he missed part of the course, or we could look at the map in detail as in the OP, then I would have DQ'd him on the spot, without hesitation. I wouldn't have had to though because I'm sure him and Utah would pulled themselves out.
The rules are outlined as follows:
So those saying automatic DQ, read the rules. It is at the discretion of the officials at the race.USAC Rulebook said:
And further to my previous post:
USAC Rulebook said:
However, the DH events and our events are not USAC sanctioned events so promoter's have even more leeway to make calls as they see fit.
Dusty the Whale
Mr.Chainsaw
Petey Greene.
1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
It's interesting how much is open to interpretation here. You could focus on the simple argument of "right is right" and that "course cutting = DQ". Given that we're nine pages into this thread, I think it's obvious there is more to (at least) consider than that.
Personally, I think the issue boils down to a couple of things:
Norm was honest about possibly cutting the course (I didn't cut anything and I only read 19 miles per lap on my shitty Edge 500, so I think his uncertainty after finishing his lap is completely understandable.)
If anyone has a beef, it ain't with Norm and Utah -- they didn't make the decision. It's with Maddawg, and he has the right (and obligation) to make that call as the promoter. It may not have been the "correct" decision from a Draconian "rules are rules" POV in hindsight, but he didn't have any more insight into what actually happened than anyone else and he made the call given the info he had. It's his call to make and it seems to be a reasonable one given the facts he had.
It's a shame those who get bumped don't get the recognition they may feel they deserve, but you all are obviously good enough to be on the podium anyway, so just use it for motivation next time!
Finally - there was free beer. Weren't we all winners? Weren't we?
Personally, I think the issue boils down to a couple of things:
Norm was honest about possibly cutting the course (I didn't cut anything and I only read 19 miles per lap on my shitty Edge 500, so I think his uncertainty after finishing his lap is completely understandable.)
If anyone has a beef, it ain't with Norm and Utah -- they didn't make the decision. It's with Maddawg, and he has the right (and obligation) to make that call as the promoter. It may not have been the "correct" decision from a Draconian "rules are rules" POV in hindsight, but he didn't have any more insight into what actually happened than anyone else and he made the call given the info he had. It's his call to make and it seems to be a reasonable one given the facts he had.
It's a shame those who get bumped don't get the recognition they may feel they deserve, but you all are obviously good enough to be on the podium anyway, so just use it for motivation next time!
Finally - there was free beer. Weren't we all winners? Weren't we?
Sevenz
Well-Known Member
Your right Norm...I also would not have DQ'ed myself if I was not 100 percent positive that I did something wrong...But when I got home that evening (just to clear my conscience) I would have downloaded my ride and compared it to the 300 or so other riders out there to see If my map matched the actual course...If I noticed they did not match I would have manned up and posted up on the forum that I screwed up and DQ'ed myself and congratulated my teammates for a great win. Or if for some reason I did not have time to compare maps and someone called me out for it and posted the evidence...I again would stand up and say you're right I screwed up and congratulated my teammates for the win...
I don't fault Dark Horse here at all...The little bit of info they had to go on was definitely not enough to DQ you...Its impossible to see on a little garmin, in the heat of the moment, without something to compare it to, if it was accurate or not. They put on great races every year and will definitely be back again next year.
I have been a lurker here for quite a while...You have a great forum and its my go to forum for all local racing info...I apologize that this turned into personal attack as it was never meant to be. I guess when I did not get the response I was expecting and it looked like you were hiding behind "the promoter made the decision" I got a little pissed...I have no doubt that you can ride the shit out of a bike and you did based on your strava stats but man come out and congratulate your teammates in public here (as I'm sure you have already done in private)
If we happen to cross paths at a future race I will be sure to introduce myself if you promise not to sick the MTBNJ posse on me ;-) No hard feelings I hope.
I don't fault Dark Horse here at all...The little bit of info they had to go on was definitely not enough to DQ you...Its impossible to see on a little garmin, in the heat of the moment, without something to compare it to, if it was accurate or not. They put on great races every year and will definitely be back again next year.
I have been a lurker here for quite a while...You have a great forum and its my go to forum for all local racing info...I apologize that this turned into personal attack as it was never meant to be. I guess when I did not get the response I was expecting and it looked like you were hiding behind "the promoter made the decision" I got a little pissed...I have no doubt that you can ride the shit out of a bike and you did based on your strava stats but man come out and congratulate your teammates in public here (as I'm sure you have already done in private)
If we happen to cross paths at a future race I will be sure to introduce myself if you promise not to sick the MTBNJ posse on me ;-) No hard feelings I hope.
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soulchild
Well-Known Member
haha!
Race day decision is what it is with the information that was availible at the time. I do not think Norm had any ill intent. However, after uploading the file, it is very celar that a section of the course was not ridden. We aren't talking a 20' section that was cut, a full section of the course was missed. Would it have made a difference in the results?, probably not. But the right thing to do is for Norm to DQ himself and return anything provided has a prize to the promoter. The promoter should also republish the race results online (we are far past the era where race results are done on paper and not to be changed after the fact. Didn't Norm modify the 6 pack results the day after last year when someone presented a garmin file showing there lap times?, yes.). The only thing that can't be undone is Norm and Utah standing on the podium. Everything else can be. Honestly, it is in the best intrest of all involved to make this right, especially for the MTBNJ race team and the site.
First - regardless of your intent, it *did* turn into a personal attack, with you repeatedly digging on me. The first post was fine, but the ego & conscious digs were out of line, especially since you didn't actually know the facts, nor do you know me.
Second - no hard feelings. Life is too short for that. I've been in your shoes and said some things that have pissed promoters off in the past. They got over it and moved on, and fully accepted us into the race community. I understand the frustration. It's all good. If you added me as a friend on FB I would accept. Since I know who you really are (note: I chose not to drag your name through the mud
), I'll know it's you. By all means, come over and we can talk about the issue over a beer. If we drink enough maybe we'll smash the bottles and try to stab each other but I suspect it will be entirely friendly. My doing that would be a kick in the nuts to Mike & George and the whole Darkhorse team. They made a decision, and that was that. For me to openly state that it was wrong, and that I don't accept it, would be the same as saying that they make poor decisions and run crappy races. I'm just not going to do that. You have to understand this perspective, no? I 100% support them, their races, and their decisions.
If Mike & George got together overnight and decided we should actually get the DQ, I'm totally fine with that. I'm sure someone can Photoshop out the picture of us on the podium. Again, if they decide to do this, I support them 100%.
Totally agree.
I understand that perspective, but how do you stand behind a decision when there is a GPS trail that proves you didn't ride part of the course? I don't think it says they run crappy races or is a kick in the nuts. It shows that you and the MTBNJ team can maintain the integrity that has been built over the last couple of years. The Dark Horse guys don't have to change their decision, but it doesn't mean you have to stand behind it when it is proven a mistake was made during the race.