Lance Armstrong interview

[bonefishjake]

My 2 cents...there is no more clean sport, just pure business. Make money quick if you can.

yes.

All of these "everybody was doing it... He didn't have a choice..." Arguments are quite sad to me. What do you say to do the kid who grows up in some ghetto and can either stay in school and find a way out or take the quick and easier way and get with a gang? Plenty of people have had harder choices than pro sports athletes to make and have done the right thing.

yes, they do. but it's all perspective.

Because its entertainment Einstein. What part of that don't you understand? Watching these guys destroy each other on beyond category climbs is ENTERTAINING. And who worships a professional athlete at your age anyway?

all you have to do is look back a few thousand years at the Roman Empire and you'll understand EXACTLY why people gather in mass to watch heros do battle.

ENTERTAINMENT.

whether it's on a mountainside or a football stadium, everyone wants the same thing- to be entertained. and as long as the gladiator mentality exists and people gather in mass, corporations will be there to "reach" them and hock there crap. athletes will do ANYTHING they have to in order to continue to be entertaining. accept it and move on.

what i was alluding to in my previous post was that his sponsors likely knew he wasn't clean...but they still rode his back up the mountains on their way to sales that were at a minimum 10x-15x their meager investment in sponsorships. then dumped him instantly when things got dicey.

lastly, i will warn all of you- the personal attacks WILL stop or i'm gonna start tossing people in the box. be adults.

 

[SpartaBard]

^THIS!



Me? I wouldnt dope only because I am so determined to do it myself I wouldnt want the help from a drug. .

I also hesitate to add to this train wreck of a thread, but your comment above is well and good, but what if that's not enough. You put in 100% and its not enough. Your livelihood depends on living up to your and your sponsors expectations. They were not in a good state of mind when they made the poor decision to dope.

 

[1speed]

Heated arguments and goin' biblical ... Lance Armstrong indeed seems to engender strong reactions, does he not?

Bit of a rant here, so sorry -- I'm waiting on a teleconference this morning and have a lot of time to kill ... forgive me my wordiness ... 😀

I doubt if he hadn't been so adamant and proactive in his denials over time that any of this would be such a big deal now. (And BTW, by proactive, I'm talking about things like this) I think that's his greatest "crime" (with the victim being ultimately himself.) Would anyone really be making such a big deal if he had never been so strong in his denials? Persoanlly, I don't think so -- I think they'd focus more on his charity work and be a lot more willing to look at his doping as the cost of doing business at that level. But in his repeated denials, he created a myth for the majority of people without any real understanding of how ridiculous those innocence claims seemed in light of the lightning fast times and the domination of other proven dopers. People who didn't follow cycling only saw a hero who became something incredible after experiencing something terrible. That kind of story resonates with almost everyone, and perhaps Armstrong's greatest failing in all of this was the pride that made him want to perpetuate that myth and become something more than what he actually was. (And that's a shame because what he actually was is still pretty amazing when you think about it objectively: he did come back from metastatic cancer to be at least competitive at the highest level of an incredibly difficult sport.)

The sport of cycling is never going to be "clean" at the pro level. It's just too hard and to make a good living doing it, the athletes need to stand out and to do so some will always seek out whatever can give them that advantage. It's not tragic. It's the reality of business. We can bemoan it as an affront to the integrity of the sport, or we can recognize that we celebrate the same mindset in other fields of endeavor. Kids in prep schools get Adderall to focus better and are awarded with scholarships for their efforts. Investment banks swallow their competition in often underhanded ways and are awarded with "too big to fail" bail outs when their bad decisions come home to roost. I'm a big baseball fan, always have been, and I have to admit that I never enjoyed goign to games more than I did in the "steroid era" because watching a shortstop hit a 500 foot homerun is pretty cool.

People have visceral reactions to Armstrong. I get the arguments on both sides. If you have a well-developed sense of right and wrong and any cheating falls squarely on the side of "wrong" for you, you are right to abhor him. If you are of a more of a big-picture, shades-of-gray mentality, then you probably would lean toward the notion that this situation simply is what it is and harsh judgment of the individual is overblown. Or perhaps you're somewhere in between. I said a while ago on my blog that as a cyclist I don't care about this whole thing because it doesn't change what the sport is for me. I agree with AM's thought process on the idea of doping - when I ride my bike, it's got to be about me and my effort. That's the entire point. But I'm not a pro and I don't want to be one. If someone wants to be one, then I don't envy them that moment that Tyler referred to in his book when he was forced to realize that this was simply how things were done if you wanted to be elite. That world is as foreign to me as competitive ice fishing, though, so I don't feel cheated when those guys make the choice to do PEDs. I do, however, believe that others who choose not to have a lot more skin in the game, a point that clean racers like Steve Tilford and Adam Myerson have been making very well for years. And, to be clear, when I said above that Lance's victim is himself, I mean only with respect to being the pariah he's now become in so many circles. I do believe that just like Mom and Pop stores have a legitimate gripe against the business practices of a monster like Walmart, clean pro cyclists have a legitimate reason to be enraged by the whole lot of those guys in the doping peloton. But that's a world I have no desire to be a part of, and I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the freak show of ridiculous times on Alp d'Huez or crazy attacks at impossible paces in the Pyrenees, even if it never fooled me that they were running on premium stuff. That's the entertainment vlaue of it, and that means money (cycling back around to that whole business component.)

So, yeah, to some I may be part of the problem for not being more insistently anti-doping when I vote with my dollars in any sport I enjoy watching at pro levels, but I do draw the distinction that while it's fun to watch, I wouldn't do those drugs myself because I have no desire to be better than everyone else on paper. If I could ever achieve that, it would need to be on my own effort or else it would totally miss the point of why I participate in this sport to begin with.

There. Done. Sorry for the length. (Not really, though.)

 

[bruce.b]

When judging Lance one of the issues left out is what an arrogant asshole he has been since long before he was famous. He has always been one of the least liked people in bike racing and for good reason. Once he gained power/fame he consistently used it to destroy anyone who crossed him. It was obvious that he used PED's. No one improves that much that rapidly without them. People liked his story and wanted to believe it, they didn't want the truth. People were STILL defending him the last few years, which is pretty comical. I don't dislike him for using juice, I dislike him because he's a nasty asshole who thought nothing about destroying other people.

As far as Greg Lemond, he was a great guy. Talk to almost anyone who was active in the sport and followed it closely back when he was racing. There were many stories in the magazines (and I knew of one personally) of someone out on a training ride when Greg Lemond caught them and instead of just riding away he'd slow down and BS for a bit before he'd go back to training. He was very approachable and consistently nice to people and well liked in and out of the sport. Yes, he lost it when Lance tried to ruin him and did make an ass of himself in an interview, but that's one small period of time under difficult circumstances. It wouldn't change your positive opinion of him if you knew anything at all about him.

 

[bonefishjake]

When judging Lance one of the issues left out is what an arrogant asshole he has been since long before he was famous. He has always been one of the least liked people in bike racing and for good reason. Once he gained power/fame he consistently used it to destroy anyone who crossed him. It was obvious that he used PED's. No one improves that much that rapidly without them. People liked his story and wanted to believe it, they didn't want the truth. People were STILL defending him the last few years, which is pretty comical. I don't dislike him for using juice, I dislike him because he's a nasty asshole who thought nothing about destroying other people.

As far as Greg Lemond, he was a great guy. Talk to almost anyone who was active in the sport and followed it closely back when he was racing. There were many stories in the magazines (and I knew of one personally) of someone out on a training ride when Greg Lemond caught them and instead of just riding away he'd slow down and BS for a bit before he'd go back to training. He was very approachable and consistently nice to people and well liked in and out of the sport. Yes, he lost it when Lance tried to ruin him and did make an ass of himself in an interview, but that's one small period of time under difficult circumstances. It wouldn't change your positive opinion of him if you knew anything at all about him.

can someone point me to an article (or 20) that speaks to him being an asshat prior to his becoming the world's most dominant cyclist?

i question this for several reasons, but mainly high level competition brings out people's desire to absolutely CRUSH anyone and anything in their way. like, completely and utterly destroy it. i'm not talking about H2H, MAC or whatever local series. if you haven't played in a truly competitive environment on the national level, then you can't really understand.

you can speculate all day, but that's just a fact.

 

[SmooveP]

Because its entertainment Einstein. What part of that don't you understand? Watching these guys destroy each other on beyond category climbs is ENTERTAINING. And who worships a professional athlete at your age anyway?

Ooooh, was that an attempt at an age-related insult? Lame. Allow me:

"SmooveP is so old, all his tattoos are in black and white."

"SmooveP is so old, the only PED he takes is Viagra."

"SmooveP is so old, there's no 'school' after the 'old'."

Again - so pro cycling is like pro wrestling then? And because it's just entertainment, it's OK to juice?

 

[SmooveP]

Well, the air must be really thin up there on your high horse. Must be nice to live in such a black and white world. I don't know how you construe the above as being a defense, but maybe reading comprehension ain't your forte. Since most professional athletes are on dope, I think its safe to say that there is a wee bit of truth in my observations. I also think its safe to say that most are on dope period, for the reasons that Bonefish pointed out earlier. Even someone with a passing interest in professional sports has to be either blind or naive to not see this. The doping genie has been out of the bottle since the beginning of the Cold War. It is what it is, and as long as sports stay big money enterprises, will stay that way. I may not personally agree with it, but I understand. Then again I ain't in a situation with a potential fortune at stake with that decision to make.

And at the end of the days, these guys ain't splitting atoms or curing cancer (except for Lance), so who cares? Do you care that Arnold and Stallone did roids also. Boycott Conan, The Terminator, and Rambo (2 and 3 sucked, but the last one rocked).

If wanting sport (or government, or whatever) to be clean means I'm on a high horse, then all I have to say is "Giddyup".

The rest of your post supports my postion 100%. That is, pro sports is hopelessly corrupt. With that in mind, I want nothing to do with it. I would've thought most of my mountain biking brethren would agree with my viewpoint. Apparently I'm in the minority. Gotta say, I'm disappointed.

 

[bonefishjake]

Rambo (2 and 3 sucked, but the last one rocked).

you sir, have crossed a line by suggesting Rambo First Blood Part 2 sucked. HOW DARE YOU.

Ooooh, was that an attempt at an age-related insult? Lame. Allow me:

"SmooveP is so old, all his tattoos are in black and white."

"SmooveP is so old, the only PED he takes is Viagra."

"SmooveP is so old, there's no 'school' after the 'old'."

Again - so pro cycling is like pro wrestling then? And because it's just entertainment, it's OK to juice?

are you old?

If wanting sport (or government, or whatever) to be clean means I'm on a high horse, then all I have to say is "Giddyup".

The rest of your post supports my postion 100%. That is, pro sports is hopelessly corrupt. With that in mind, I want nothing to do with it. I would've thought most of my mountain biking brethren would agree with my viewpoint. Apparently I'm in the minority. Gotta say, I'm disappointed.

which point is that?

 

[Frank]

Ooooh, was that an attempt at an age-related insult? Lame. Allow me:

"SmooveP is so old, all his tattoos are in black and white."

"SmooveP is so old, the only PED he takes is Viagra."

"SmooveP is so old, there's no 'school' after the 'old'."

Again - so pro cycling is like pro wrestling then? And because it's just entertainment, it's OK to juice?

Very well played Sir!

While my opinion of LA may differ from yours, or many others for that matter, I will respect your opinion. Had I focused on Road cycling back then, I may have a different opinion today as well. From what I saw(which admittedly is only the surface) I saw an American rise from the ashes of cancer and conquer. Having lost my dad to cancer and nearly my best friend last year, to me LA is held in a different light and I will continue to wear his yellow band.

Everyone cheats, everyone lies, everyone steals....it's what we made our society to be. 🙁

 

[Norm]

Everyone cheats, everyone lies, everyone steals....it's what we made our society to be. 🙁

You are large, hairy, and ugly. Just wanted to let you know.

But I love* you. Man.

* not like that you pervert!

This thread has jumped the Fonz. Next obnoxious post gets an adverse reaction from me in some way, shape, or form.

 

[Frank]

You are large, hairy, and ugly. Just wanted to let you know.

At least your post is based on facts....hey, wait a minute!!!!!

 

[bruce.b]

I'm not going to try to look them up but one of the last articles I read was Lance's coach before he hit the big time talking about him. He wasn't trying to trash Lance, if anything he was protecting him but it still came through loud and clear what an asshole he was. It has never been a secret that Lance has always been an asshat.

>>i question this for several reasons, but mainly high level competition brings out people's desire to absolutely CRUSH anyone and anything in their way. like, completely and utterly destroy it.<<
I'm sure this is true for some of them but it's certainly not generally true. I have personally known several people that competed successfully on the national level and most of them were super friendly and nice. I hung out a lot with a bunch of the best boulderers in the world and they were all great people. Every one. They were super focused when climbing (who isn't?) but always friendly. My nephew and his dad are close personal friends with a bunch of the NJ Devils players and they aren't asshats. My nephew has even spent the weekend many times at the goalie's (Brodeur) house. I got to know and party with some of the best mountain bikers in the early days of the sport and they were all great people. I don't remember any being assholes.

 

[SmooveP]

are you old?

which point is that?

Yes, I may be old. But you have bad taste in movies.

Point? Why does everything have to have a point with you?🙄

But seriously, my point is that everything sucks, and that people seem to be OK with that fact.

 

[SmooveP]

Very well played Sir!

While my opinion of LA may differ from yours, or many others for that matter, I will respect your opinion. Had I focused on Road cycling back then, I may have a different opinion today as well. From what I saw(which admittedly is only the surface) I saw an American rise from the ashes of cancer and conquer. Having lost my dad to cancer and nearly my best friend last year, to me LA is held in a different light and I will continue to wear his yellow band.

Everyone cheats, everyone lies, everyone steals....it's what we made our society to be. 🙁

Thanks, man. I respect your opinion as well. I'm not, and never have been, a road racer. But I will admit to owning a road bike and enjoying the movie Breaking Away.

I'll also admit to getting sucked in by the Lance story. And to believing he was clean. He was being tested left and right.

This article aligns pretty well with most of my opinions on the subject:
http://surlybikes.com/blog/post/hero_worship_doesnt_make_sense_without_dopers

"Shine your own damn light" is my new slogan.

 

[Frank]

"Shine your own damn light" is my new slogan.

I like that!

 

[Norm]

But seriously, my point is that everything sucks, and that people seem to be OK with that fact.

I think there's a level of passive acceptance of entertainment-trash going on. I admit I am ambivalent on this. Various points:

1. Doping, and cheating, is a fact of life in this discussion.
2. It is entertainment.
3. To that end, I ignore the behind-the-scenes stuff and just enjoy the entertainment.
4. I have children. Well, 1 child.
5. In general, we want to tell our kids that it's not good to cheat & lie.
6. We also tell them, as a society, to try to reach the top.
7. Kids are not as dumb as we think.
8. These kids will grow up and see that we've been saying that a) it's bad to cheat and b) you should try to do well.
9. Kids will put #7 and #8 together, and wonder who was more naive, them as kids or us as parents.
10. I have just finished my last cup of coffee in this house
11. In theory we want all sports to be cheating free.
12. Then biking sucks, and nobody watches.
13. And the NFL sucks, and nobody watches.
14. Then we read books by the fireplace instead.
15. But then we find a week later that the book we were reading was actually a story that was stolen from someone else and the original author is suing the publisher for copyright infringement
16. And the firewood you were burning was actually poached from the Green Acres lot down the street
17. So you watch a movie instead
18. See point #15 and adjust it for this discussion.
19. So instead, we sit in the dark and watch candles burn
20. But then we find out the candles are made by 6 year old children in Sri Lanka
21. So then we just open up a beer made by midget trolls in concentration camps and watch the game of steroid-laden human-o-morphs because at the end of the day you just can't win.

So yeah, in a way, everything sucks. How can you address it all? If you empathize with everything that is wrong in the world, I think you'd shoot yourself in a matter of 24 hours.

At the end of all of this, the only thing that really matters is point #10. Thanks for listening.

 

[clarkenstein]

that coffee better be free trade.

 

[PatrickBrown]

Norm, after reading that, I realize that I as well just want another cup of coffee haha

 

[capedoc]

I think there's a level of passive acceptance of entertainment-trash going on. I admit I am ambivalent on this. Various points:

1. Doping, and cheating, is a fact of life in this discussion.
2. It is entertainment.
3. To that end, I ignore the behind-the-scenes stuff and just enjoy the entertainment.
4. I have children. Well, 1 child.
5. In general, we want to tell our kids that it's not good to cheat & lie.
6. We also tell them, as a society, to try to reach the top.
7. Kids are not as dumb as we think.
8. These kids will grow up and see that we've been saying that a) it's bad to cheat and b) you should try to do well.
9. Kids will put #7 and #8 together, and wonder who was more naive, them as kids or us as parents.
10. I have just finished my last cup of coffee in this house
11. In theory we want all sports to be cheating free.
12. Then biking sucks, and nobody watches.
13. And the NFL sucks, and nobody watches.
14. Then we read books by the fireplace instead.
15. But then we find a week later that the book we were reading was actually a story that was stolen from someone else and the original author is suing the publisher for copyright infringement
16. And the firewood you were burning was actually poached from the Green Acres lot down the street
17. So you watch a movie instead
18. See point #15 and adjust it for this discussion.
19. So instead, we sit in the dark and watch candles burn
20. But then we find out the candles are made by 6 year old children in Sri Lanka
21. So then we just open up a beer made by midget trolls in concentration camps and watch the game of steroid-laden human-o-morphs because at the end of the day you just can't win.

So yeah, in a way, everything sucks. How can you address it all? If you empathize with everything that is wrong in the world, I think you'd shoot yourself in a matter of 24 hours.

At the end of all of this, the only thing that really matters is point #10. Thanks for listening.

 

[Monkey Soup]

Ooooh, was that an attempt at an age-related insult? Lame. Allow me:

"SmooveP is so old, all his tattoos are in black and white."

"SmooveP is so old, the only PED he takes is Viagra."

"SmooveP is so old, there's no 'school' after the 'old'."

Again - so pro cycling is like pro wrestling then? And because it's just entertainment, it's OK to juice?

You forgot:

"SmooveP is so old he farts dust"

Quite honostly, juicing will never go away in sports, so right or wrong, I won't agonize over it. Also, at the end of the day, I really don't care that much about professional sports because to me all it is is passing entertainment. These guys aren't solving critical world problems or working on a cure for humanities ills. I like to ride my bike because I like to ride, not because there is a professional sport built around it. I actually started riding because I liked it, and it took me years to even pay attention to the professional sporting side of it. I even raced for years without even a passing interest in NORBA, WorldCup, or Protour crap.