nice thought robbie, but it'll never happen. why? there are (for example) like 20x more racers in the below categories. that means 20x more loot than from cat1 and up. they'll want to keep the gravy train happy. that's marketing AND economics.
H2H 2011 Proposed Sched and Payout Schedule
- Thread starter wmbarace
- Start date
RNG1
Well-Known Member
Unless you did some sort of study how would you know that you wouldn't actually increase the amount of cat3 people if it were not first thing in the morning? We all know they are young and want to stay out late and party the night before while us old farts have no life but ride a bike when we can😀
Pearl
THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
Color me stupid, but can you shed some light on why this would be better?
Panhead
Well-Known Member
Was any other race series schedules looked at? I know its a pain in the ass, but if I could do 3-4 races in a month and still be in the points in both series that would be sweet.
Last year H2H Jungle Habitat was the same day as the NYSMTB finisher at Reildelbauer's.
The NY State Series starts Cat 3 with Cat 2, Then they do Cat 1 and Pro together. It actually works out real smooth.
Music and food at the races are also a plus.
Last year H2H Jungle Habitat was the same day as the NYSMTB finisher at Reildelbauer's.
The NY State Series starts Cat 3 with Cat 2, Then they do Cat 1 and Pro together. It actually works out real smooth.
Music and food at the races are also a plus.
Easier for spectators, course marshalls, pre/post race setup and clean up. Easier to get feed, easier for medical crews. I like bigger lap races but its about more than the racers. It's why cx is so popular.
thedoner
Member
+1 for an endurance class!!!
With the surge in popularity of endurance racing in general, it would be a hit. I think the series needs to evolve. When I lived in MD and was racing the MASS, racers (myself included) started to get bored with the same venues & schedules year after year. They added a short track series which didn't catch on, and the endurance class/series which took off. I would go so far as to also suggest having some one off endurance races as well, such as the MASS does with the Stoopid 50 & Rattling Creek. These epic, point to point races hold a strong appeal for racers that lap races simply can't provide. We certainly have some great venues that could host them. Granted I wouldn't expect that to happen as soon as next year, but maybe the subject should at least be brouched at the upcoming promoters meetings.
With the surge in popularity of endurance racing in general, it would be a hit. I think the series needs to evolve. When I lived in MD and was racing the MASS, racers (myself included) started to get bored with the same venues & schedules year after year. They added a short track series which didn't catch on, and the endurance class/series which took off. I would go so far as to also suggest having some one off endurance races as well, such as the MASS does with the Stoopid 50 & Rattling Creek. These epic, point to point races hold a strong appeal for racers that lap races simply can't provide. We certainly have some great venues that could host them. Granted I wouldn't expect that to happen as soon as next year, but maybe the subject should at least be brouched at the upcoming promoters meetings.
Yes, for sure. I also think it goes towards the purity of the event, in a sense. If I'm doing a 50 miler, ok, if I show up and it's 1 lap, then cool. I signed up for it so throw it at me. With the XC races, especially in cat 1, it's not a race so much as a time trial because there's nobody out there. The shorter the course, the more people you have on the course. IMO, that's 1 huge, huge advantage cx has over the mtb races. You're actually racing other people as opposed to being out there by yourself. The smaller laps would have more people on the course.
The promoters did meet last week and set the schedule for 2011. In doing so we discussed several topics all of which are touched upon in various posts throughout this thread. I will attempt to cover some of this here:
Payouts-Two reasons for this. The first was to have the exact same payout schedule regardless of who the promoter may be. The second reason is an attempt to boost the Pro/Cat 1 Open class with hopes that the faster guys in the age groups will race in this class and it will draw some competition from other areas. We had two proposals on the table. The one posted by Chris and another in which there was NO payout to any age group. It was decided by majority that we would try the one posted for 2011 instead of pulling all the payouts from the age groups. Sort of a trial and if it works then possibly payout just the Pro/Cat1 Open class moving forward to 2012.
Race Start Times-This was also discussed. The reason we feel it is a good idea to keep Cat 1 last is these are your most fit athletes. They should be conditioned for the distance and performing in the heat of the day. If you send a Cat 3 out at 1 in the afternoon on a 90 degree day things could get dangerous as they are generally not as fit as Pro/Cat 1 racers. The subject was brought up about having two categories racing at the same time on the courses which can handle the traffic but again trying to keep the Series Schedule Uniform similar to standardized payouts and entry fees we feel that by participants knowing that every event will start at specific times for your category is an easy thing to remember. If you have to race at 1 pm you also get to sleep later and get the rest you need.
Endurance Class- many of the venues can't handle the traffic. You need an area where the endurance racers can flow through without issues from the start of the other classes.
Jeff Stickle
Black Bear Cycling
Payouts-Two reasons for this. The first was to have the exact same payout schedule regardless of who the promoter may be. The second reason is an attempt to boost the Pro/Cat 1 Open class with hopes that the faster guys in the age groups will race in this class and it will draw some competition from other areas. We had two proposals on the table. The one posted by Chris and another in which there was NO payout to any age group. It was decided by majority that we would try the one posted for 2011 instead of pulling all the payouts from the age groups. Sort of a trial and if it works then possibly payout just the Pro/Cat1 Open class moving forward to 2012.
Race Start Times-This was also discussed. The reason we feel it is a good idea to keep Cat 1 last is these are your most fit athletes. They should be conditioned for the distance and performing in the heat of the day. If you send a Cat 3 out at 1 in the afternoon on a 90 degree day things could get dangerous as they are generally not as fit as Pro/Cat 1 racers. The subject was brought up about having two categories racing at the same time on the courses which can handle the traffic but again trying to keep the Series Schedule Uniform similar to standardized payouts and entry fees we feel that by participants knowing that every event will start at specific times for your category is an easy thing to remember. If you have to race at 1 pm you also get to sleep later and get the rest you need.
Endurance Class- many of the venues can't handle the traffic. You need an area where the endurance racers can flow through without issues from the start of the other classes.
Jeff Stickle
Black Bear Cycling
Larry helps run the NJ CX cup, so he knows about getting heat and constructive criticism.
But Kush was right. These decisions were apparently already made and this is a formality/red herring. That's disappointing. I also don't see why there's no market research done in terms of putting these questions out to the public and collecting as much data as possible.
It took all of 10 minutes to set this up:
Click here to take survey
That survey is real. Fire away, vote, and I'll post the results.
From the promotors point of view.
A race is a lot of work to put on. Most of the people that are there on the day of and days leading up to an event are volunteers. Despite what anyone might think. No one is doing this to get rich and retire. You make afew bucks that in our (WMBA) case pays insurance and for trail work days through out the year.
As was said. Start times were discusses. The logistics dictate the starting proceddure more then anything else. There can only be so many racers on the course at once. You need to able to capture all the racer data as they cross start finish and then coordinate / post results, have an awards ceremony and get the next class out on the course. Believe me it is an undertaking.
I think that the series has grown nicely over the past couple of years. The races run pretty smooth. A lot of good ideas have been expressed here. You need to look at the event from the perspective of the promotor and land owner just as we look at it from the racers prospective. There are a lot of dedictated people that sacrifice a lot of time to promote the sport. With out them none of this would be possible.
Chris.
A race is a lot of work to put on. Most of the people that are there on the day of and days leading up to an event are volunteers. Despite what anyone might think. No one is doing this to get rich and retire. You make afew bucks that in our (WMBA) case pays insurance and for trail work days through out the year.
As was said. Start times were discusses. The logistics dictate the starting proceddure more then anything else. There can only be so many racers on the course at once. You need to able to capture all the racer data as they cross start finish and then coordinate / post results, have an awards ceremony and get the next class out on the course. Believe me it is an undertaking.
I think that the series has grown nicely over the past couple of years. The races run pretty smooth. A lot of good ideas have been expressed here. You need to look at the event from the perspective of the promotor and land owner just as we look at it from the racers prospective. There are a lot of dedictated people that sacrifice a lot of time to promote the sport. With out them none of this would be possible.
Chris.
I can understand the feeling that Cat 3 racers might not be as capable of dealing with heat as Cat 1/Pro guys. Personally though after a year of racing at 1pm, I dont think I felt any better about riding in 100deg than I did when I was cat 3 guy. To me the 2-3 hrs vs 30-45min would make up any difference in safety...just my opinion. I also tend to think that cat 3 should suck and racers should be encouraged to get out of it asap.
EABODS
Member
well said. spending 2-3 hours in the heat (think wayaway this season) as opposed to less than hour is better hands down. Nevertheless, we are in this to suffer so what Jeff says is what stands.
H2H sets their series early, to accommodate racers setting goals, land managers schedules and other series schedules, which is good. My advise would be to to do a poll in September. Keep the thoughts coming, as the series is always evolving.
One thing I would like to add is that without new Cat 3's coming in each year, there will be no cat 2's, and cat 1's tomorrow. Promoters must make the effort to supply a quality race experience for beginner to pro. Without this racing will not be sustainable.
I have seen this series grow from it's first year, and it it is always getting better.
Stay tuned for a team competition as well in 2011.
One thing I would like to add is that without new Cat 3's coming in each year, there will be no cat 2's, and cat 1's tomorrow. Promoters must make the effort to supply a quality race experience for beginner to pro. Without this racing will not be sustainable.
I have seen this series grow from it's first year, and it it is always getting better.
Stay tuned for a team competition as well in 2011.
kush
Active Member
Cat 1s are more likely to drive a bit further to the other bigger, at times more organized, and electronically timed series than the Cat 3s ...
Just sayin'. People like to be not just heard but listened to.
This thread was like "hey what do you think" 😀 and then "well, cool thanks but its too late". 😡 I'd have left it alone if that's the approach.
And this is not taking ANYTHING away from the people who work damn hard to make this series happen. Nothing at all.
Just sayin'. People like to be not just heard but listened to.
This thread was like "hey what do you think" 😀 and then "well, cool thanks but its too late". 😡 I'd have left it alone if that's the approach.
And this is not taking ANYTHING away from the people who work damn hard to make this series happen. Nothing at all.
Very well said.
Dates are "proposed" because a date or two or which race comes first could change. Dealing with outside factors such as landowners and scheduling.
Idea was to get the dates out there as well as the schedule and get some chatter going.
CM