Tariffs...what to make of them.

Norm said:
Why is it ok in politics to justify bad behavior by saying others have had bad behavior in the past? It’s mind-boggling that this kind of justification is not only normal but expected.

That guy ordered a strike on a Taliban installment so it’s ok if this other guy indiscriminately kills all minorities. As a fabricated example.

It is quite often the only thing Trump supporters rely on to justify his actions. It’s like everyone knows the guy is destroying everything he can. It’s just some people are ok with it and others are not. But generally everyone agrees, deep down, it ain’t right.
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This is the mantra of climate deniers in our country. Why should we do anything about climate change when China and India are terrible polluters? Morons.
 
rlb said:
On the media topic, there was a very interesting episode of JRE a month ago with a guy who dives deep into USAID. What he claims is that USAID has corrupted basically all of the press (foreign and domestic) and also has their hand in many foreign covert operations to further US interests. While this is only a few steps removed from a global cabal of lizard people trying to invoke a new world order, I’ve gotta think at least some of this is true. And if it is, that may explain a lot about why the press covers things the way they do.

Admittedly I have not done my homework on any of this, and I take much of it with a grain of salt, but I also tend to think where there’s smoke there’s fire.

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Mike Benz is a POS:
www.nbcnews.com

This anti-censorship crusader appears to have buried something himself: A secret alt-right past

Frame Game, the pseudonym of an alt-right internet personality, hid his face while pushing racist conspiracy theories. Inadvertent slips revealed details about his identity.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
 
UtahJoe said:
So while I agree that looking at it day to day is probably not the best approach.....HOWEVER....I think what is bad for Trump is this on again, off again....Tariffs are for making billions, tariffs are to punish countries for fentanyl, tariffs are for fairness...were going to sink canada to the point that they will become a state....but then tomorrow...scrap all of that for these 17 companies....Europe is adding tariffs now, ok, well now we are going to respond with X....There appears to be no coordinated plan....There is no coordinated message about tariffs....Today sen tommy tuberville was on fox news talking about NO PAIN NO GAIN.....ya, putting americans in pain usually doesn't help your popularity.

Like I think people would be on board with targeted tariffs....but this tit for tat.....market keeps tanking....companies are going to start laying people off....Trump will KILL any good name tariffs might have had. Like im not anti tariff...we need tariffs in some cases, 100%. But can anyone tell me what new thing we might have a tariff on tomorrow and for what reason?

New report from the Treasury today....spending rose to 603b last month....40 billion more than last year....So while everyone is getting all jolly about the DOGE savings....fact is we spent 7% more last month than a year ago...ALL employs in the entire federal govt amount to 4% of the money we spend. Keep cutting, fire people, making everyone services suck more....its not going to make a dent.....Social Security, the defense budget and Medicare/Medicaid......That is where ALL the money is....when you hear they are cutting those...then we might see some savings.
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For me this is the biggest issue. There isn’t any plan and everything seems to be off the cuff in reactionary mode 🤷🏽‍♂️
 
Norm said:
As a communist pinko liberal (or whatever people want to label me) I actually agree that USAID is probably best spent at home, as opposed to the rest of the world. I do believe that we would be better served to spend more money at home fixing our own problems.
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I disagree. USAID is involved in a lot of stuff and most Americans probably have no idea what they do. Here are a few points to consider:

1) They're mainly involved in humanitarian efforts.
2) Their annual budget is around $40bn, which is .7% of the fed budget.
3) Some people think that military and economic "sticks" are our only tools for influencing foreign countries, but USAID, along with diplomacy, are key elements of "soft power". Things like dealing with problems over there before they become problems over here.
4) There are multiple levels of oversight and strings attached to the aid we send, both before and after we send it.

A big chunk of the aid has gone to Ukraine in the past few years for obvious reasons. We do this both because they're an ally of the US and because we have strategic interests in the region.

This is a fairly easy read: https://www.cfr.org/article/what-usaid-and-why-it-risk
 
SmooveP said:
I disagree. USAID is involved in a lot of stuff and most Americans probably have no idea what they do. Here are a few points to consider:

1) They're mainly involved in humanitarian efforts.
2) Their annual budget is around $40bn, which is .7% of the fed budget.
3) Some people think that military and economic "sticks" are our only tools for influencing foreign countries, but USAID, along with diplomacy, are key elements of "soft power". Things like dealing with problems over there before they become problems over here.
4) There are multiple levels of oversight and strings attached to the aid we send, both before and after we send it.

A big chunk of the aid has gone to Ukraine in the past few years for obvious reasons. We do this both because they're an ally of the US and because we have strategic interests in the region.

This is a fairly easy read: https://www.cfr.org/article/what-usaid-and-why-it-risk
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Counterpoints that are the general ones:
1) Great. But yes we have humanitarian efforts here that we could attend to.
2) 40bn is still a great deal of money. What if we just divided that up into four 10bn parts in the US and put each towards Homelessness, Child Care, Infrastructure & healthcare for the poor? Do those in other countries deserve it more than we do?
3) Sure, but what's the actual payback on this vs keeping it here? 40bn year after year.
4) While oversight and strings attached helps keep out some fraud and waste, it may still be there and it's still leaving the country.

SmooveP said:
Did you consider that there might be a valid reason for the high percentage of negative stories? Also the numbers are meaningless without context such as how many eyeballs were exposed to said stories. Also also, Fox has been the #1 news network for 20 years. I think most people would admit that the Fox/Trump relationship was a little too cozy.

With regard to the USAID payments to media companies, I assume you're referring to the AP and Politico. Both of those companies provide specialized subscription services for both government and commercial clients. The govt has subscribed to the AP feed for decades across Rep and Dem admins. Here's what Trump said on Truth about it:

“LOOKS LIKE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS HAVE BEEN STOLLEN AT USAID, AND OTHER AGENCIES, MUCH OF IT GOING TO THE FAKE NEWS MEDIA AS A ‘PAYOFF’ FOR CREATING GOOD STORIES ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS.”

I haven't any proof about the "payoff" part. The govt uses news feeds as one of many information sources to keep informed. Do they subscribe to any right-leaning or centrist publications? I dunno.

"Incestuous", you say? The 2 main characters in this discussion, Trump and Musk, both own social media outlets. One of them is pretty big.
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The Politico thing is just like a lot of other things Musk "found" during the audit like the people claiming Social Security that were over 150 years old, or other garbage. Politico just like all these other services that were charging the government like Adobe for software licenses. It wasn't a ripoff by the companies or some conspiracy.
 
I love listening to the Russian boot lickers go on about military aid to Ukraine. What they don’t understand is much of what we have been giving Ukraine would have cost a great deal to dispose of. Things that go boom do not age like a fine wine. The m1a2 tanks are obsolete, the Bradley fighting vehicles are being phased out. The 155mm artillery shells date back to the 70s, the mlrs units are all 20-30 years old. Most of the Ukrainian military aid goes into the American arms industry and thus the US economy and the US military gets new shiny things that go boom while disposing of the old and rusty things. Stoping Ukrainian aid will cut cash flow to the US economy.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine showed the world how crap the Russian weapons are, as a result many countries had started canceling Russian arms orders and started ordering American arms. These tariffs will result in canceled arms deals and this will also hurt the US economy. Yup, trump is a true moron.
 
I call BS if you actually think the DOGE bags we find enough money to drive the debt the down, let alone pay for the extending or making the 2017 tax cuts that added $7.8 TRILLION to the debt. They are saying $40 billion here and $50 billion there will never touch the debt. The GDP debt ratio is 122%.
 
John the Plumber said:
I call BS if you actually think the DOGE bags we find enough money to drive the debt the down, let alone pay for the extending or making the 2017 tax cuts that added $7.8 TRILLION to the debt. They are saying $40 billion here and $50 billion there will never touch the debt. The GDP debt ratio is 122%.
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Well, there's always medicare and SS.
 
scott62 said:
I love listening to the Russian boot lickers go on about military aid to Ukraine. What they don’t understand is much of what we have been giving Ukraine would have cost a great deal to dispose of. Things that go boom do not age like a fine wine. The m1a2 tanks are obsolete, the Bradley fighting vehicles are being phased out. The 155mm artillery shells date back to the 70s, the mlrs units are all 20-30 years old. Most of the Ukrainian military aid goes into the American arms industry and thus the US economy and the US military gets new shiny things that go boom while disposing of the old and rusty things. Stoping Ukrainian aid will cut cash flow to the US economy.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine showed the world how crap the Russian weapons are, as a result many countries had started canceling Russian arms orders and started ordering American arms. These tariffs will result in canceled arms deals and this will also hurt the US economy. Yup, trump is a true moron.
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It's almost entirely old junk.... Mraps for example.... We spent over 50 billion dollars buying roughly 25,000 mraps...nearly 20 years ago... There are about 9000 left... Great in Iraq and Afghanistan... However... We haven't had a large scale use for these in forever... They sit around and we spend a fortune maintaining them...then toss them as we are the only military who can afford them anyway... Or we give some to Ukraine... It is a sunk cost... Much like the m1s.. The front line ones are all being retrofitted anyway.

Yes it costs us money, but our military is like a bike shop who buys 1 million 2007 models, then nearly 20 years later we're spending a fortune trying to find thousands of 9 speed derailleurs
 
Santapez said:
Counterpoints that are the general ones:
1) Great. But yes we have humanitarian efforts here that we could attend to.
2) 40bn is still a great deal of money. What if we just divided that up into four 10bn parts in the US and put each towards Homelessness, Child Care, Infrastructure & healthcare for the poor? Do those in other countries deserve it more than we do?
3) Sure, but what's the actual payback on this vs keeping it here? 40bn year after year.
4) While oversight and strings attached helps keep out some fraud and waste, it may still be there and it's still leaving the country.


The Politico thing is just like a lot of other things Musk "found" during the audit like the people claiming Social Security that were over 150 years old, or other garbage. Politico just like all these other services that were charging the government like Adobe for software licenses. It wasn't a ripoff by the companies or some conspiracy.
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We're the richest country in the world. We can afford to do some of both. Are you suggesting we go full isolationist? If not, it's just a hair-splitting exercise. Ask 10 people what our spending priorities should be and you'll get 10 different answers. Figuring out how to spend $40bn requires oversight and logistics (and staff) whether the recipients are foreign or domestic. Taxpayers will still complain bitterly how that money is spent domestically.

Everything is worth looking at regarding spending and you might be surprised to know how much "looking" is already done. I was involved in annual budget drills for the Army system I worked on, We did software support for a fielded system and had to count how many bugs we logged and fixed and how many were still unresolved in order to justify next year's funding. Every organization has an IG and everyone would shit their pants if they got a call from the IG. People tend to look at govt spending like it's some mysterious black hole, but most budgets are public and there's competition for the dollars from within and outside every organization. The Software Engineering Ctr at Ft Monmouth supported 60 different systems and every one of them would cry that they're underfunded.

We're a big, complex country with lots of stuff. We (rightfully) have a Congress to decide how to spend money. That responsibility has been handed over to a nutty billionaire. Imagine how you'd feel if your company brought in an outsider who knows nothing about your business to slice and dice your operation.
 
SmooveP said:
We're the richest country in the world. We can afford to do some of both. Are you suggesting we go full isolationist? If not, it's just a hair-splitting exercise. Ask 10 people what our spending priorities should be and you'll get 10 different answers. Figuring out how to spend $40bn requires oversight and logistics (and staff) whether the recipients are foreign or domestic. Taxpayers will still complain bitterly how that money is spent domestically.

Everything is worth looking at regarding spending and you might be surprised to know how much "looking" is already done. I was involved in annual budget drills for the Army system I worked on, We did software support for a fielded system and had to count how many bugs we logged and fixed and how many were still unresolved in order to justify next year's funding. Every organization has an IG and everyone would shit their pants if they got a call from the IG. People tend to look at govt spending like it's some mysterious black hole, but most budgets are public and there's competition for the dollars from within and outside every organization. The Software Engineering Ctr at Ft Monmouth supported 60 different systems and every one of them would cry that they're underfunded.

We're a big, complex country with lots of stuff. We (rightfully) have a Congress to decide how to spend money. That responsibility has been handed over to a nutty billionaire. Imagine how you'd feel if your company brought in an outsider who knows nothing about your business to slice and dice your operation.
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I'm just saying there's counter points. I'm not even against foreign aid, but I'm positive a ton of it is a waste.

But I will say taxation isn't voluntary and is backed by violence. Those 10 people, 10 different answers is a good reason that if the government doesn't have to spend it, don't spend it and let the citizens keep it.
 
Norm said:
So we can send all the old Scalpels to the Ukraine?
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I picture Utah sending a plastic bin of frames to Ukraine with a note saying "Sorry, missing a tiny suspension part, I'm sure you can ask around on some forums to see if someone has one. Don't mind the split top tube"
 
Santapez said:
I'm just saying there's counter points. I'm not even against foreign aid, but I'm positive a ton of it is a waste.

But I will say taxation isn't voluntary and is backed by violence. Those 10 people, 10 different answers is a good reason that if the government doesn't have to spend it, don't spend it and let the citizens keep it.
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They don't "have" to spend any of it. It's all at the discretion of one or more people in the govt. Our govt, made up of the same fallible, biased humans that infest the entire planet. Why, some of the people on this very board are probably getting rich on our dime right now...
 
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