Tariffs...what to make of them.

And I said it before. For Putin is not about NATO. It's about Ukraine agriculture potential and personal ego. Kiyev region is birthplace of great Rus people. Unfortunately they future will be decided by external powers. Same as it happened before with other eastern European countries but I really hope I'm wrong.
 
Dave Taylor said:
So is it ok to control which media outlets can come to press briefings? Asking for a friend. And is this your way of getting out of posting those links?
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Just what I thought....crickets... got this off reddit. Interesting...
"I'm late to this but watching a docu on Hitler's rise to power and Trump's rise to power are strikingly similar except that Trump is using billionaires to fund his psychotic vision. What is similar is the use of hate as an offensive; Hitler believed that after Germany lost WW1, the left wing sociodemocratic jews were ruining and bankrupting Germany. Inflation was through the roof, and germans were having a hard time getting by. Hitler's nazi party (national german worker's party) was ultra populist, conservative and hated jews. Jews accounted for 1% of the population but were the lowest hanging scapegoat. When Hitler took power, he used it to eradicate the jews. Trump's lowest hanging fruit are illegal immigrants. The next on his list are POC americans, women, LGBTQ, the people who are progressive in ideology. Trump thrives on hate, it keeps him in power. Lower educated americans are more suseptible to his messaging which is why he wants to eradicate education. The situation America is in is because of one man's hunger for power and control. Elon Musk is Trump's Himmler. A person more evil and manipulative than Trump. Elon will do the most damage to democracy.

ETA: One important thing to note is when Hitler began taking away Germans civil liberties, they did not even notice it. They barely noticed the propaganda being used against Jews. The deletion of civil liberties / hatred of jews became a normalized part society. America is on this very path towards self destruction. Only the targeted scapegoats in this instance are liberals, POC, LGBTQ and women. This is why it is important to get loud, protest, and make it known we do not stand with hate, violence, and inequality. We stand for liberty, justice, equality and freedom. Nazi Germany became that way because it fed into hate, and normalized it. And its population embraced it because of their own fears, and ignorance. We have to stay awake. When they use "woke" as a triggter word, you use "sleepy" as the same. Fight the hate with all you've got."

Also,a good read. Don't listen to Trump. Analyze the poison you are being fed. https://verfassungsblog.de/the-authoritarian-regime-survival-guide/
 
Johnny Utah said:
Really, because I am trying to get my fat ass off the couch and go hiking so I don’t want to respond - but. My face below shows my mood.

One - It puts some sort of repayment plan in place and helps Trump conjure his base to see we aren’t getting ripped off in a time he is going after waste/fraud in spending.

Two - by bringing American interests into Ukraine in a manner that is viable to the people of the US and his base - to develop resources and bring back funds/assets disbursed - it makes further aggression by Russia into Ukraine an easier sell to start to strike into Russia if American interests are lost. Whatever interests we have there now are long forgotten about. One day these would be too - unless he makes a big deal about them weekly during his tenure, as he likes to do.

The second is the fact that Trump has at least tried to negotiate with Putin also offers Trump a leg to stand on in case we do go to war with Russia. Because the mainstream media and big government would love that and BLAME TRUMP daily. Chess not checkers.

That interview was ridiculous - Trump was screwed either way, he came from a position of power rather than the US getting lectured by Zelensky. I am rooting for the US - I sympathize for Ukraine but don’t see how anyone wins without ridiculous loss of life in addition to what has been lost - and either way it ends in a “Cold War” scenario - just like Israeli sees daily.

Now @UtahJoe please let me know how this is going to end in a great position for Ukraine without expanding the conflict?

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So let me see if I understand

The orange man has said... HIS Words... Russia has suffered 1.5 million casualties.... Ukraine is still currently occupying over 1000 Sq km of Russian territory.... They have had to turn to north Korea for weapons and soldiers... They are currently making very VERY slow progress in Ukraine.. Albeit it's costing them 1000-1500 casualties per day.

Now, after all of that loss to obtain putins stated goals... Remove Ukraines current government, install one favorable to Russia... Prevent Ukraine from joining nato... Bc Ukraine joining nato would mean they have security guarantees... Which would mean any attack on Ukraine would garner a response from nato.......

So again after losing what Trump claims 1.5 million soldiers... dead wounded missing... Only getting 20% of Ukraine, and losing some of his own land... Zelenskyy stays in power... Putin is going to stop all fighting.... Then allow our billionaires... (this mineral wealth is not coming back to us... It will go to whichever Elon musk figure is doing the mining) to come into Ukraine and take whatever we want.... Oh oh... And we offer no security guarantees to Ukraine.... So Russia will be super scared. Or our people being on the ground is a security guarantee.... wait isn't a security guarantee what helped start the war to begin with? So if one of them are killed, we are now in a direct war with Russia. But in the meantime, we abandon any allies we had in Europe and throw putin a lifeline. Mind you the inflation in Russia is now 10% and climbing... they are sending all of their able-bodied men to the front lines while needing tons of people to run factories making War equipment.... This has caused major issues as they are forced to pay very high salaries to lure people away from any normal job to go work on making war equipment.


What does putin want more than anything? Us to stop helping Ukraine, that is his dream scenerio. He can keep fighting until hopefully one day Ukraine falls and he can tell his people he beating the big bad usa.

What are the alternatives?

Well Zelenskyy isn't asking us to supply him with any direct help... Just keep supplying him with the old junk we have been giving him...

Now I personally have listened to hundreds of Ukrainians being interviewed in the past 3 years... To a person... They love their country, they love not being enslaved by Russia and they are more than willing to fight and die for this cause as we see everyday... That means something to me personally... You or other Americans can say... Hey... countries don't have friends they only have interests... so fuck those people what's in it for me? Fine, I don't expect anything more.

Whether we like it or not, the MIC employs 10% of the population... Which is in part why we spend so much on defense... When we cut defense, congressman get fired... We don't give money to the Ukraine, we actually give it to our MIC, which then keeps people employed and feeds tax dollars back to the US... While I think there are major issues with this model....to say we are just giving money to Ukraine is nonsense.. We're not. And any fucking moron who thinks Ukraine stole that money... Please.. Explain how they caused 1.5 million Russian casualties... were they throwing rocks at the Russians?

Added bonus... Thanks to Ukraine we have seen what a complete paper tiger Russia is as a world military power... They are nothing more than a gas station with nukes

So.. Rather than help Ukraine, we can go with trump's plan..Zelenskyy signs over his resources... In return for absolutely nothing... Loses face with his people. We turn on our allies, give putin anything he wants.. Resume trading with him, get Russia out of their current death spiral, allow them to rebuild their military.... Maybe putin would cut us in on dividing up Ukraine's resources after we allow the Ukrainian government to be overthrown... Which of course would then put us in direct military conflict with Ukraine themselves. Sounds awesome, we can be complete shit bags like putin too... Maybe putin can teach our troops how to torture and murder civilians and dig mass graves

Let's not forget that Trump was the one who gave Zelenskyy the weapons that kept this war going and saved the Ukrainians in the opening weeks of the war... I applaud him for that... So now after tens of thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians, mass graves all over the country, violation of every international law of war that has been written... He has seen who this guy is... Now he wants to allow Russia to fully overrun the place and ally the US with Russia... For what? Money... Its fucked up.
 
I'll even make it simpler... @Johnny Utah and @Doom and the rest of the Maga crowd.... Just wake up every morning and say.... I am super happy that I support enslaving the Ukrainian people just so my fellow American billionaires can make more money... And possible added bonus, American soldiers can finally be in a shooting War and get killed too.
 
UtahJoe said:
I'll even make it simpler... @Johnny Utah and @Doom and the rest of the Maga crowd.... Just wake up every morning and say.... I am super happy that I support enslaving the Ukrainian people just so my fellow American billionaires can make more money... And possible added bonus, American soldiers can finally be in a shooting War and get killed too.
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Still waiting for you to tell me how they get out. Seems you are inferring they continue to fight, at which point they need outside support in both money and weapons.

Do you feel that NATO and/or the US should push Russian out of Ukraine? If we succeed at that, what then? Does NATO stand guard at the boarder? Should we push to Moscow? Are you saying the American tax payer should do this for free?

If a Kilo class sub finds offense with this and sinks an American Flagged merchant ship claiming it has US weapons destined for Ukraine do we then stand idle or are we in?

Are you ready to send your son to Ukraine to fight Joe?

Do we go back to Afghanistan, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon etc. and start muscling them around and everyone else that has been screwed by failed US diplomacy?
 
Johnny Utah said:
Still waiting for you to tell me how they get out. Seems you are inferring they continue to fight, at which point they need outside support in both money and weapons.
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Yes, in which case we DON'T send them our people.. Much like we haven't already... In trump's scenerio, we are now on the ground in Ukraine... Either Russia or Ukraine will be in conflict with us... If we are aligned with Russia taking Ukraines wealth, won't be long before a conflict starts


Johnny Utah said:
If a Kilo class sub finds offense with this and sinks an American Flagged merchant ship claiming it has US weapons destined for Ukraine do we then stand idle or are we in?
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Um are you forgetting about the 3 years worth of weapons we have already sent them? Hasn't happened yet... There are no kilo class subs in the med... The sub the Russians had there, the Ukrainians destroyed while it was in dry dock
Johnny Utah said:
Do we go back to Afghanistan, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon etc. and start muscling them around and everyone else that has been screwed by failed US diplomacy?
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We are not in Ukraine, now... Under trump's plan we will be
 
UtahJoe said:
Yes, in which case we DON'T send them our people.. Much like we haven't already... In trump's scenerio, we are now on the ground in Ukraine... Either Russia or Ukraine will be in conflict with us... If we are aligned with Russia taking Ukraines wealth, won't be long before a conflict starts



Um are you forgetting about the 3 years worth of weapons we have already sent them? Hasn't happened yet... There are no kilo class subs in the med... The sub the Russians had there, the Ukrainians destroyed while it was in dry dock

We are not in Ukraine, now... Under trump's plan we will be
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Sub doesn’t need to be in the med - it can be anywhere in the Atlantic launched from Murmansk or a plethora of other weapons systems/scenarios. Putin has already noted towards the end of 2024 that with the upgrade in capabilities of weapons being provided by the US and the fact they they are now being used on Russian soil, they would consider options on retaliation.

Under Trumps plan we are not fighting the Ukrainians - but we are dividing assets up vs. leaving them with either NATO or Russia.

At some point here there is either a treaty or a full blown war. I ask you again as you have not answered - are you willing to send your son?

Yes - we sent them three years worth of weapons- it is near stalemate with unimaginable human life lost at an eye open dollar figured that could have been used elsewhere. Uncle Joe left plenty of weapons in Afghanistan - are we going to launch the bombers out of Diego Garcia and soften up Bagram so we can jump back in and build a Texas Roadhouse in Kandahar?
 
Johnny Utah said:
Under Trumps plan we are not fighting the Ukrainians - but we are dividing assets up vs. leaving them with either NATO or Russia
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Again, just say to yourself..on repeat.. . I am perfectly okay with enslaving the Ukrainian people to help my fellow American billionaires make more money.

Im not the one advocating for the US to be directly involved, you are... Don't be a *****, own it
 
UtahJoe said:
Again, just say to yourself..on repeat.. . I am perfectly okay with enslaving the Ukrainian people to help my fellow American billionaires make more money.

Im not the one advocating for the US to be directly involved, you are... Don't be a *****, own it
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Oh I am not okay with it - but I am far more in favor of avoiding a direct war between US/Nato & Russia as well as the ramifications that would bring.

At no point in time did I advocate for the US war machine to be involved. But you have, what do you think providing weapons and the training on how to use said weapons is? It may not be on Ukraine’s soil - but it is happening.

I still don’t see how that conflict ends without a treaty that is not favorable to either side or destroying the other sides ability to fight - Ukraine does not have the man power for that and the US nor Europe is going to provide the munitions needed to beat Russia into submission with the man power Ukraine has - those would be weapons of mass destruction. Which yes, we took away. Awful situation.

I take it your answer is no - you would not send your son to fight against Russia. There are a lot of people in this country that agree with you. It is in our best interest to reach the eventual stalemate and treaty now before more death, destruction and pain - not to mention billions of dollars flushed into a superfund killing field.
 
Johnny Utah said:
Oh I am not okay with it - but I am far more in favor of avoiding a direct war between US/Nato & Russia as well as the ramifications that would bring.

At no point in time did I advocate for the US war machine to be involved. But you have, what do you think providing weapons and the training on how to use said weapons is? It may not be on Ukraine’s soil - but it is happening.

I still don’t see how that conflict ends without a treaty that is not favorable to either side or destroying the other sides ability to fight - Ukraine does not have the man power for that and the US nor Europe is going to provide the munitions needed to beat Russia into submission with the man power Ukraine has - those would be weapons of mass destruction. Which yes, we took away. Awful situation.

I take it your answer is no - you would not send your son to fight against Russia. There are a lot of people in this country that agree with you. It is in our best interest to reach the eventual stalemate and treaty now before more death, destruction and pain - not to mention billions of dollars flushed into a superfund killing field.
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I think you underestimate American soldiers. They don’t ask where, they say when. I know this from having a stubborn retired marine older brother. @Johnny Utah , I also sent a link countering your claim that America has sent 3x what anyone else has to fight this war. That’s far from even remotely accurate.
 
Johnny Utah said:
Oh I am not okay with it - but I am far more in favor of avoiding a direct war between US/Nato & Russia as well as the ramifications that would bring.

At no point in time did I advocate for the US war machine to be involved. But you have, what do you think providing weapons and the training on how to use said weapons is? It may not be on Ukraine’s soil - but it is happening.

I still don’t see how that conflict ends without a treaty that is not favorable to either side or destroying the other sides ability to fight - Ukraine does not have the man power for that and the US nor Europe is going to provide the munitions needed to beat Russia into submission with the man power Ukraine has - those would be weapons of mass destruction. Which yes, we took away. Awful situation.

I take it your answer is no - you would not send your son to fight against Russia. There are a lot of people in this country that agree with you. It is in our best interest to reach the eventual stalemate and treaty now before more death, destruction and pain - not to mention billions of dollars flushed into a superfund killing field.
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It's not hard if our president wasn't a puppet of Russia... We have tremendous power over Russia... We can squeeze them so much harder then we are currently doing... (Biden should have done this from the start)... If Trump had any balls he would use our influence over China to further squeeze Russia... To the point where the battlefield conditions would dictate a sensible end.... we could hurt them so much more economically than we are currently doing.... Give Ukraine more weapons, f16s, a10s which we are about to send to the scrap heap.... Let them know... we will double the amount of weapons that we are going to send... Want to make a deal? How about ok Russia, return the land you took and Ukraine never joins nato... Or keep the land you took and they are in nato starting now. Russia never respects weakness, ever.

At no point should Americans be in Ukraine, its not nessesary... Only if we want to extort their resources and protect our billionaires Investments... That Is the only way our people end up there
 
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