Race Timing

[Norm]

Although this is true, I've experienced my times be incorrect more than once this year, and it's frustrating and gives you doubt about the system as a whole -- if my time can be wrong by 5 minutes, who's to say the places are correct? Our race series needs credibility, first and foremost, and while I don't want to spend more, I can easily justify spending $30 for trusted results as opposed to a suspect $25.

Your times are probably right, they just stagger the field or start late. The posted times for the race Sunday were as if everyone had started at the same time. So I pulled a 1:30:25 or whatever but that was 4-5 minutes after the lead group went off. All that matters is how I placed in regards to the guy before/after me.

I will say that some races will say, "Subtract X for real time," which would be an easy "fix" for this. But if every racer in your group complains they were scored 5 minutes slowly, it probably just means that group started 5 minutes later than they marked it as.

 

[anrothar]

a chip system could solve that, as opposed to putting the volunteer staff in a situation where they would have to individually go through and subtract 1,2,3,4,5 minutes from most racers' individual times in order to publish exact results.

 

[monkey boy]

What I think they NEED to do is, F'n post the results up sooner and have an updated series spreadsheet quicker! I shouldn't go to the next race in a series before I know my standings from the previous race!

A timing system will take care of this. you would get results almost instantly antd they could get to USA cycling and the rest of the world much faster. it would also help to organise everything as the series goes on.

 

[Norm]

a chip system could solve that, as opposed to putting the volunteer staff in a situation where they would have to individually go through and subtract 1,2,3,4,5 minutes from most racers' individual times in order to publish exact results.

They don't manually subtract anything, so no work is saved really. My time will be listed at 1:30 even though the first 4-5 minutes of that was me standing in the lot. I've never seen the times actually corrected.

And it won't actually solve the problem - look at the 24 Hours of Allamuchy. They just mark everyone as starting at 12:00 because (I imagine) it causes problems to scan the herds of people as they cross a starting line. So they just mark everyone as starting at the official start time. The same exact problem would happen!

As a reply to Monkey Boy's last post - all these results are in a computer already. As of Sunday dinner time they were. So they should be available immediately regardless of the system used. If there's manual leg work involved then there are certainly inefficiencies in the system. I would be happy to discuss offline with anyone who wants to try to make the system better for next year.

 

[jeffstick]

Keep in mind the H2H race series is still considered grass roots. When we run our race in May it takes alot of time to prepare and make sure everyone and everything is ready for race day. We use a manual scoring system that is quite simple and have never had a problem. You can't post results of a class until all riders are finished anyway. Just because you may be first in keep in mind that there will be some riders arriving more than 45 minutes after you have finished.

As far as cost goes I guess not too many of you do any road races at any time or any CX racing either. The cost of these events are the same as the Mtn races and with CX you get to race for only 40-50 minutes. On the road end of things they pull the top 5-10 numbers and then group the remaining people in whatever order they choose to place.

With regard to the cost of an electronic scoring system these are very expensive. And if you buy one that uses a chip and even if we have decided as a series to use such a system and assign a chip or number to each at the beginning of the season I can guarantee that many racers would show up without their assigned chip or number. A system like this makes much more sense using pre-reg only and in our races you are lucky to have 50% pre-reg. Trying to input racer information the day of a race with keeping registration open until 15 minutes before race time of each class would make this difficult. Also probably over 50% of the racers use a one day license so a scanning process would not work either.

One last note to all the complainers out there if you think you can do it better step up and promote a race and lets see how you do or even join an organization to help out maybe your input could make things better.

 

[ChrisG]

For me, more "precise" timing isn't a priority for mtb racing. I agree with Ben, that finishing place is the focus. I certainly think that seeing my time relative to the rest of the racers is important as well, but I don't mind waiting some for this info.

I also would re-emphasize the point previously made, that our local racing is "grassroots". The people putting on the races are the same people building and maintaining the trails, and are out there riding & racing with everyone else.

 

[pixychick]

As for timing, some promoters have tried the fancy timing stuff and we always wait around for hours after the race for results anyway. And then there are mistakes. I have found that keeping it simple works for us too, we just NEED volunteers!!!

So if you don't already, consider joining a club that promotes a race and volunteer. Many promoters do the tasks of three or four people. Don't forget, you raced on Sunday. The promoters and volunteers lost a riding day to work the race for you. Monday may be their day to ride, and then there is the real job, kids etc..

I too get frustrated with slow results, but what frustrates me more is people that come out and race, do zero and think they deserve better!! Many of the promoters that take time out from their training to prepare and run a race, are also the ones doing trail maintenance in these parks too. There are many ways to help out.

Pointing out problems is important, but helping in the solution is better.

 

[NJ-XC-Justin]

Your times are probably right, they just stagger the field or start late. The posted times for the race Sunday were as if everyone had started at the same time. So I pulled a 1:30:25 or whatever but that was 4-5 minutes after the lead group went off. All that matters is how I placed in regards to the guy before/after me.

I will say that some races will say, "Subtract X for real time," which would be an easy "fix" for this. But if every racer in your group complains they were scored 5 minutes slowly, it probably just means that group started 5 minutes later than they marked it as.

Appreciate the feedback, but I'm Beginner, 30-39, which means in every race this year up until JH I've been the first to race. Many results at Blue were just off, not 5 minutes across the board, and I've heard this from several people. They STILL have several spots missing from the Beginner 40-49 results:
http://wmba.tommychurch.com/2007-results.pdf

I like a grassroots race as much as the next guy, but a chip would prevent this.

 

[scalpel6]

Mid Atlantic

As for timing, some promoters have tried the fancy timing stuff and we always wait around for hours after the race for results anyway. And then there are mistakes. I have found that keeping it simple works for us too, we just NEED volunteers!!!

So if you don't already, consider joining a club that promotes a race and volunteer. Many promoters do the tasks of three or four people. Don't forget, you raced on Sunday. The promoters and volunteers lost a riding day to work the race for you. Monday may be their day to ride, and then there is the real job, kids etc..

I too get frustrated with slow results, but what frustrates me more is people that come out and race, do zero and think they deserve better!! Many of the promoters that take time out from their training to prepare and run a race, are also the ones doing trail maintenance in these parks too. There are many ways to help out.

Pointing out problems is important, but helping in the solution is better.

It may be worth speaking to the people that run the Mid-Atlantic Series. They seem to have a pretty good system. Results are posted very quickly.

 

[Norm]

Jeffstick brings up good points about race day realities and the point needs to be made that the promoters need to make sure the race runs to completion first and foremost. Results are necessary of course but all those marks on a piece of paper can be worked out after the dust settles. Cost of CX or road races is immaterial IMO. Also, problems in a seasonal electronic system would be many.

To specifically address a point Jeff made however, I think the results complaints are more about the results being posted 5 days after the race, not 5 minutes. I do take exception to this however:

One last note to all the complainers out there if you think you can do it better step up and promote a race and lets see how you do or even join an organization to help out maybe your input could make things better.

This is all about constructive criticism. GlancingAft's post was unnecessary, but everything else has been even-keeled. Why do people get so defensive if anyone suggests that things can be better? Nobody is attacking your family with pointed sticks. Most of us just want to help make a better product.

Pointing out problems is important, but helping in the solution is better.

I don't see the difference. Without identifying the biggest problems they won't be addressed first. The first step in any solution is to figure out what the problem really is. From the sounds of it, electronic scoring would only compound any problems so having this conversation is already productive. Maybe Monkey Boy takes away that the debate he was having after Sunday's race is misguided. Progress without leaving your chair is progress nonetheless.

As I have posted already, I would be more than willing to help put together a season-encompassing scoring solution that would help get results to the table asap. I would also be willing to discuss maintaining a set of web pages with series schedules, race results, etc for 2008. I could not be more visible than I am. I have over 3000 posts now. My profile has my email address. I've posted MB links that you could use to drive to my house. I race in a pink jersey for crying out loud. Really, I'm here to help. Can't miss me. Fat guy, loud mouth, pink jersey. Stop by and say hi.

 

[elzoller]

S.... For instance this upcoming weekend, I have a wedding to attend Saturdy Night. Now do I get drunk and have a great time, or do I call it am early night and go up to Tymor Park Challenge......

That is simple....GET DRUNK!!

 

[Not So Fast]

I don't race

I don't race but $25 a race to me seems a bit much. Most of you are racing more than 8 times a year. Thats over $200, just to race. Add to that the expense of getting there and all the incidentals. I would guess that if you add it all up at the end of the year you've spent over $1000. Thats alot of mula to me. I'd rather spend that dough on upgrades......

 

[jbogner]

USA Cycling License: $60
Race entry fee: $25
Gas and tolls to the race site: $30
Gel packs and race nutrition: $10
Replacing the chain and cassette you demolished in the race: $150
Beating your riding buddies in a head to head competition: priceless



Compared to my yearly budget for beer, my yearly racing budget is pretty modest. One keeps me in shape so that I can enjoy the other...

 

[ChrisG]

There's no doubt that the cost of racing can rapidly escalate, and potentially become prohibitive, but if we begin applying strict logic to the endeavor, we're doomed anyway. I mean, come on, we're flying around in the woods with beer coolers on our heads.

Just as Jamie writes, I believe that the rewards of racing are worth it for the other costs, be they time, money, whatever. If I start worrying too much about the investment, I'll make myself nuts.

I'm not saying that anyone else should see it this way, but that's where I'm at. Riding my bike does more for me than I could possibly quantify. Racing just amplifies some elements of the overall experience.

 

[monkey boy]

Riding my bike does more for me than I could possibly quantify. Racing just amplifies some elements of the overall experience.

I could not agree more with what you are saying in that quote.

Pixiechick's statement about taking time out and needing more volunteers is spot on.
I gave up weeks of ride time to help out with the trails at JH.then cooked in the sun on race day watching everyone else rip it.

Don't forget this is a poll so vote and who knows what the outcome will be.

 

[ryderX]

USA Cycling License: $60
Race entry fee: $25
Gas and tolls to the race site: $30
Gel packs and race nutrition: $10
Replacing the chain and cassette you demolished in the race: $150
Beating your riding buddies in a head to head competition: priceless



Compared to my yearly budget for beer, my yearly racing budget is pretty modest. One keeps me in shape so that I can enjoy the other...

Perfect. You win post of the week !!!

 

[rocknrollgirl]

OK..so I replied quickly..from the gut. I have skimmed or read most of what you all have written, and at the risk of coming out of the woodwork...

I race all kinds of races..mt bike, adventure races, xterra...blah, blah, blah. Some use a chip, some don't. Most of them cost upwards of 75 dollars to enter. The mt bike races are cheap.

That being said, I have a BIL that is a big runner. He races every weekend. The races cost 20 bucks, are chip timed and have good food. It is a huge discrepency from where I sit.

What is the answer? I don't know. The last xterra I did, they had splits up before everyone crossed the line. Necessary, no....Nice, very.

I don't need a t-shirt, or food, but accurate timing is pretty darn nice. Well, I lied...food is good....

OK..please don't skewer me....I have a big race this w/e....

 

[Norm]

Good reply. The only thing I would bring out is this:

That being said, I have a BIL that is a big runner. He races every weekend. The races cost 20 bucks, are chip timed and have good food. It is a huge discrepency from where I sit.

There's an economy of scale involved. Like one previous poster mentioned, some of the running races have thousands of racers. I was told offline an electronic scoring system was quoted at $1200 per race. That comes out to around $4 a pop for Sunday's turnout, but maybe 25-50 cents in a running event.

I would also imagine the liability insurance is greater for a mountain biking event but I have nothing to back that up.

 

[rocknrollgirl]

Good Point Norm, and one I did not consider. One of the trail races on my schedule this winter has 900 runner...in January...in the friggin' snow.

So yes, they do out number us.

 

[ryderX]

Good reply. The only thing I would bring out is this:



There's an economy of scale involved. Like one previous poster mentioned, some of the running races have thousands of racers. I was told offline an electronic scoring system was quoted at $1200 per race. That comes out to around $4 a pop for Sunday's turnout, but maybe 25-50 cents in a running event.

I would also imagine the liability insurance is greater for a mountain biking event but I have nothing to back that up.

Great discussion so far with lots of valid points. We've looked into electronic timing numerous times over the years for our team events and the quotes have ranged from $1850- 2200 per event. That's a pretty big fix cost that gets paid no matter if 300 racers show up or 185 show up. I'll assume that the MASS promoter(s) cut a deal for the whole season. Keep in mind that their entry fees are higher and they also charge an additional registration fee if you want to race and be scored in the overall series, oh yeah lose your number plate during the series and be prepared to kick up $5-10 for replacement. Also keep in mind that lost, damaged or misplaced chips are billed out at $45-55 each. I can almost hear the screams of outrage from some poor sport racer who gets an invoice in the mail 3 weeks after a race for a lost chip. Now that will make for an interesting future thread someday.
Needless to say I'll vote for electronic timing with the understanding that it's no panacea.