Hartshorne/Huber Conditions

[SmooveP]

Pretty much bone dry in there this afternoon despite yesterday's torrential rain. Few new trees down, though, so keep yer eyeballs peeled.

 

[Mitch]

Pretty much bone dry in there this afternoon despite yesterday's torrential rain. Few new trees down, though, so keep yer eyeballs peeled.

 

[SmooveP]

View attachment 101515

You missed one.

 

[SmooveP]

Surprise! All of the new fallen trees are cleaned up. And a few old ones, too, including the one at the switchback by the hopes & dreams box.. Flow has been restored.

 

[Tim]

Surprise! All of the new fallen trees are cleaned up. And a few old ones, too, including the one at the switchback by the hopes & dreams box.. Flow has been restored.

This is pretty awesome news. Just to satisfy my own curiosity, was this something that falls in the realm of fight club or was it official MCPS activity?

 

[TimBay]

My wife saw something on FB that a hiker broke their ankle at Hart's...so maybe some additional TM will get done as a result.

 

[don]

I'm also a volunteer. I also work on Saturdays. The problem is, as the JORBA leaders could attest to, is that the park [system] is not willing to accept outside help. It's not a new problem, and it seems unlikely to change unless there is some serious leadership change in the MCPS. Note, I'm not bashing the MCPS--they do the best they can with their, frankly, limited resources--but if a group of accredited trail builders/maintainers can't get them to listen (much less do work in the park), the best we have to hope for is two beat-backs of the bushiest trail during the summer, and some water bars thrown in on laurel ridge. Occasionally, the rangers will remove fallen trees, but even the particularly bad one (for the trail, which is currently sliding down hill from people botching the log-over) on Rocky Point is still there. Something like a month? It's a 6" tree, and doesn't even require careful removal, as it would probably slide downhill if someone cut it at the top. It's what, 1,000 feet from the road?

I have helped at MCPS TM's. For me it is not worth trying to move things around to get over there on a random Saturday to help fix fire roads or build a water bar that doesn't work. Like others have said it is a beyond frustrating experience.

I rode up in Stowe, VT a few weeks ago. What Stowe is doing (and a number of other places) is incredible. These places have really well built trails that are a blast to ride, can be ridden hours after rain and do not need much maintenance. There are a few trails I rode that I would drive the 7 hours one way to ride again. They were that fun and I kept thinking on the ride back to NJ: "If only I had that closer to home"

@TimBay - some issues and points for Hartshorne/Huber and MCPS:
- I feel like the MCPS model for volunteer's to jump from park to park for TM's which doesn't make sense to me. If Hartshorne is my local park and I ride there 1-3 times a week I will know what works and doesn't work. That should be the park I do my TM's.
- There is no plan (at least from what I have seen/experienced) for the overall park. I could be wroing but the TM's I've done seem to be planned the day of.
- There should be more flexible and more frequent TM times - I actually find that smaller crews 2-3 working different sections do the best work. And Saturday mornings are the busiest times there - why have TM's then?
- I'm not going to waste my time building waterbars. Maybe I am just speaking for myself but in this day and age if you want to get a crew to bust ass it will have to be a mtn bike specific trail or multi use trail that has a really great mtn bike riding experience.
- I do not know the numbers but I bet that Hartshorne has the most mtn bike riders in any park of MCPS. And if that is the case why isn't there a mtn bike group that works with MCPS. I think this is what you are trying to do and would think it would beneficial to both MCPS and the rider group.

 

[TimBay]

I have helped at MCPS TM's. For me it is not worth trying to move things around to get over there on a random Saturday to help fix fire roads or build a water bar that doesn't work. Like others have said it is a beyond frustrating experience.

I rode up in Stowe, VT a few weeks ago. What Stowe is doing (and a number of other places) is incredible. These places have really well built trails that are a blast to ride, can be ridden hours after rain and do not need much maintenance. There are a few trails I rode that I would drive the 7 hours one way to ride again. They were that fun and I kept thinking on the ride back to NJ: "If only I had that closer to home"

@TimBay - some issues and points for Hartshorne/Huber and MCPS:
- I feel like the MCPS model for volunteer's to jump from park to park for TM's which doesn't make sense to me. If Hartshorne is my local park and I ride there 1-3 times a week I will know what works and doesn't work. That should be the park I do my TM's.
- There is no plan (at least from what I have seen/experienced) for the overall park. I could be wroing but the TM's I've done seem to be planned the day of.
- There should be more flexible and more frequent TM times - I actually find that smaller crews 2-3 working different sections do the best work. And Saturday mornings are the busiest times there - why have TM's then?
- I'm not going to waste my time building waterbars. Maybe I am just speaking for myself but in this day and age if you want to get a crew to bust ass it will have to be a mtn bike specific trail or multi use trail that has a really great mtn bike riding experience.
- I do not know the numbers but I bet that Hartshorne has the most mtn bike riders in any park of MCPS. And if that is the case why isn't there a mtn bike group that works with MCPS. I think this is what you are trying to do and would think it would beneficial to both MCPS and the rider group.

So this is exactly what I'm trying to do. I want to approach the park system as a group of registered volunteers. Id like to work within the forum to schedule dates that work for our group and do TM then. This would bw outside of the MCPS schedule, but all sessions amd plans would get approval by MCPS. We need to work with them.

We also need some help from experienced trail workers like @rottin' and folks from JORBA that maybe ride and know these trails to help us determine how to focus oyr efforts. I know very little about TM and erosion and all that.

What is important is numbers of officially registered volubteers. That will mean people will need to attend the boring TM training they offer. But if we can approach them as a group, it will be more effective at being able to accomplish what we want. I'm volunteering to approach them and fight to maoe this happen. I need someone like @rottin' who was a MCPS TM leader to let me know if hed be willing to be our designated leader (we'd have to work with his schedule) and I need people to officially become registered volunteers for the sake of meeting the MCPS need which I assume are for insurance reasons.

As trail users, it's up to us to try and make things better, not just expect it to happen for us. So please sign up or let me know that you're already a member sothat I can get a count together.

 

[SmooveP]

This is pretty awesome news. Just to satisfy my own curiosity, was this something that falls in the realm of fight club or was it official MCPS activity?

Not sure, but park personnel have been known to visit this here forum, so maybe complaining on the internets works? If that's the case, thanks, park people!

 

[wonderturtle]

@don - everything you said about MCPS TMs is 100% true.

Utter joke. It’s not about maintaining the trails. They’re PR stunts (“smile for the picture!”). Nothing more.

Meanwhile Huber is the nearly the worst it’s ever been. Ridiculous unaddressed erosion everywhere.

I hope the person that broke their ankle sues them. I really do. They need to be held accountable for their neglect. Trails that THEY have marked as green (easy) or moderate (blue) are treacherous in parts directly because of their negligence. Maybe a huge lawsuit will finally wake them up to the fact they have an obligation to maintain the trails.

As far as I can tell MCPS does NO maintenance what so ever. Right now their trail maintenance plan is to rely on a bunch of (mostly) 70 year olds to go out to random parks for 2 hours a few times a year. Total joke.

They deserve to get sued

 

[chaloots]

So this is exactly what I'm trying to do. I want to approach the park system as a group of registered volunteers. Id like to work within the forum to schedule dates that work for our group and do TM then. This would bw outside of the MCPS schedule, but all sessions amd plans would get approval by MCPS. We need to work with them.

We also need some help from experienced trail workers like @rottin' and folks from JORBA that maybe ride and know these trails to help us determine how to focus oyr efforts. I know very little about TM and erosion and all that.

What is important is numbers of officially registered volubteers. That will mean people will need to attend the boring TM training they offer. But if we can approach them as a group, it will be more effective at being able to accomplish what we want. I'm volunteering to approach them and fight to maoe this happen. I need someone like @rottin' who was a MCPS TM leader to let me know if hed be willing to be our designated leader (we'd have to work with his schedule) and I need people to officially become registered volunteers for the sake of meeting the MCPS need which I assume are for insurance reasons.

As trail users, it's up to us to try and make things better, not just expect it to happen for us. So please sign up or let me know that you're already a member sothat I can get a count together.

I'm signed up (still have the shirt somewhere), somewhat local to harts and would be willing help do some targeted trail maintenance if you can pull it off.

 

[TimBay]

I'm signed up (still have the shirt somewhere), somewhat local to harts and would be willing help do some targeted trail maintenance if you can pull it off.

Thanks for confirming.

Everyone please provide or DM your real name in case they want to verify my list.appreciate everyone's support in the effort to better our trail conditions.

 

[SmooveP]

Everyone please provide or DM your real name in case they want to verify my list.

Pat McFadden

 

[don]

@don - everything you said about MCPS TMs is 100% true.

Utter joke. It’s not about maintaining the trails. They’re PR stunts (“smile for the picture!”). Nothing more.

Meanwhile Huber is the nearly the worst it’s ever been. Ridiculous unaddressed erosion everywhere.

I hope the person that broke their ankle sues them. I really do. They need to be held accountable for their neglect. Trails that THEY have marked as green (easy) or moderate (blue) are treacherous in parts directly because of their negligence. Maybe a huge lawsuit will finally wake them up to the fact they have an obligation to maintain the trails.

As far as I can tell MCPS does NO maintenance what so ever. Right now their trail maintenance plan is to rely on a bunch of (mostly) 70 year olds to go out to random parks for 2 hours a few times a year. Total joke.

They deserve to get sued

I haven't done a TM in years but that last couple that I did I felt that it was a PR thing. And I totally agree on MCPS relying on 70 year olds to bounce around to different parks. It is great that the older folks help but on one of my last TM's at Hartshorne one of them built a log water bar on a fall line section of trail. When I told him I didn't think it would direct water off the trail I got the "I'm older than you and have been to every TM this year so you don't know what you are talking about" vibe.

About a broken ankle lawsuit - I see that if a trail is designated a green and a beginner rider comes upon a 2 foot drop because of poor trail design/maintenance and crashes that is very bad thing but suing MCPS might just take Hartshorne away (or they might just close it to mtn biking). Going back to the Stowe, VT model - there are trails at the Trapp Family Lodge that are marked green. They are a great balance of being safe and fun. I brought my kids on them years ago and it was a perfect introduction to mtn biking but were fun for all levels.

 

[TimBay]

I haven't done a TM in years but that last couple that I did I felt that it was a PR thing. And I totally agree on MCPS relying on 70 year olds to bounce around to different parks. It is great that the older folks help but on one of my last TM's at Hartshorne one of them built a log water bar on a fall line section of trail. When I told him I didn't think it would direct water off the trail I got the "I'm older than you and have been to every TM this year so you don't know what you are talking about" vibe.

About a broken ankle lawsuit - I see that if a trail is designated a green and a beginner rider comes upon a 2 foot drop because of poor trail design/maintenance and crashes that is very bad thing but suing MCPS might just take Hartshorne away (or they might just close it to mtn biking). Going back to the Stowe, VT model - there are trails at the Trapp Family Lodge that are marked green. They are a great balance of being safe and fun. I brought my kids on them years ago and it was a perfect introduction to mtn biking but were fun for all levels.

Yes/No with the PR stunt thing. I think a lot of people who volunteer and show up are older and limited in ability. They also have those limited resources and availability of maintenance, so you get some minor/shoddy work. That said, the mud fix seems to be holding up, which was a great and much needed fix. What I want is for us to be able to get maintenance done with our MTB community, which are people in somewhat better shape to perform the work. We also want to do the trails that those folks won't venture out to. We'll need guidance from people who know what and how to fix things. I also plan on broaching the JORBA subject down the road if we get traction on this initiative. Strength in numbers is the key though. Being able to say I have 15, 20, 25 people ready to go is much more effective than saying "I" think MCPS should do "This". It's an I vs We argument.

I'm going to email Tracy today to see if I can set up time to start the conversation and see what kind of actions, road blocks, etc. we might need to put this in motion. Please continue to call out if you're registered or plan on registering and spread the word to your riding buddies. Numbers are hugely important.

 

[SmooveP]

@don - everything you said about MCPS TMs is 100% true.

Utter joke. It’s not about maintaining the trails. They’re PR stunts (“smile for the picture!”). Nothing more.

Meanwhile Huber is the nearly the worst it’s ever been. Ridiculous unaddressed erosion everywhere.

I hope the person that broke their ankle sues them. I really do. They need to be held accountable for their neglect. Trails that THEY have marked as green (easy) or moderate (blue) are treacherous in parts directly because of their negligence. Maybe a huge lawsuit will finally wake them up to the fact they have an obligation to maintain the trails.

As far as I can tell MCPS does NO maintenance what so ever. Right now their trail maintenance plan is to rely on a bunch of (mostly) 70 year olds to go out to random parks for 2 hours a few times a year. Total joke.

They deserve to get sued

Dude. You're not helping. Tell me how bashing the 70 year olds who show up (when we don't) is constructive. Or bashing the Park personnel, the very people we're supposedly trying to win over. Put yourself in their shoes. Mountain bikers build rogue trails. The park puts up fences and signs to close them and mountain bikers immediately re-open said trails. It's a slap in the face.

There are something like 35 parks in the system, not counting the golf courses. Sure, they could increase staffing to do everything the public wants, but as a taxpayer I'm not sure I'd want to pay for that. The volunteer organization does a lot more than trail maintenance. They're involved in almost every activity run by the park. Here's this year's calendar: https://www.monmouthcountyparks.com/page.aspx?Id=2742 I've met Tracy, some of the rangers and lots of other people from the park system, and they're all good people. And, like i've mentioned before, some of them monitor this site. Show some restraint.

 

[chaloots]

lets harness some of that energy turtle, get your MCPS tee ready.

 

[don]

Dude. You're not helping. Tell me how bashing the 70 year olds who show up (when we don't) is constructive. Or bashing the Park personnel, the very people we're supposedly trying to win over. Put yourself in their shoes. Mountain bikers build rogue trails. The park puts up fences and signs to close them and mountain bikers immediately re-open said trails. It's a slap in the face.

There are something like 35 parks in the system, not counting the golf courses. Sure, they could increase staffing to do everything the public wants, but as a taxpayer I'm not sure I'd want to pay for that. The volunteer organization does a lot more than trail maintenance. They're involved in almost every activity run by the park. Here's this year's calendar: https://www.monmouthcountyparks.com/page.aspx?Id=2742 I've met Tracy, some of the rangers and lots of other people from the park system, and they're all good people. And, like i've mentioned before, some of them monitor this site. Show some restraint.

You have listed plenty of reasons why a dedicated Hartshorne / Huber work crew with a much more solid plan and frequent TM's is needed: too many parks with not enough staff.

And the rogue trails you mention are a big reason that MCPS should re-evaluate it's trail plan for Hartshorne. With a group of mtn bikers making sustainable and fun trail that riders would love to ride and a crew out in the woods more frequently - rogue trails wouldn't be an issue. I think mtn bike specific trails and a pump/jump section for the younger kids in the area (that I've seen hanging out and making jumps) would be go a long way.

BTW, WonderTurtle wasn't bashing 70 year olds at all (unless it was directed at me where I actually bashed one in my post). I feel like he gives them props- like he said MCPS relies on the older folks to do the work at all MCPS areas.

 

[TimBay]

You have listed plenty of reasons why a dedicated Hartshorne / Huber work crew with a much more solid plan and frequent TM's is needed: too many parks with not enough staff.

And the rogue trails you mention are a big reason that MCPS should re-evaluate it's trail plan for Hartshorne. With a group of mtn bikers making sustainable and fun trail that riders would love to ride and a crew out in the woods more frequently - rogue trails wouldn't be an issue. I think mtn bike specific trails and a pump/jump section for the younger kids in the area (that I've seen hanging out and making jumps) would be go a long way.

BTW, WonderTurtle wasn't bashing 70 year olds at all (unless it was directed at me where I actually bashed one in my post). I feel like he gives them props- like he said MCPS relies on the older folks to do the work at all MCPS areas.

I think if we start small and just get some of our own TM sessions approved, we can build out from there.

 

[don]

I think if we start small and just get some of our own TM sessions approved, we can build out from there.

I agree - something small is better than nothing at all but just putting out a picture of many positives to get a point across