Discussion: Is cyclocross dying?

I'll start off by saying that I don't understand cross at all and the guys that make these classes must have fallen out of the stroller at a young age. What's the difference between 4/5 and 3/4? It doesn't make sense to me. I assumed that a 4/5 class is Cat 4 and Cat 5 duders racing at the same time, after which you are scored in your own category. Why would somebody racing 4/5 jump to 3/4? It seems like it would take a lot of time and effort to get out of a class where you'll always be against somebody super fast. The front pack of 6 in my class lapped me soon after I started my 3rd lap, then there was a pretty significant gap until I saw some more come by. I can understand UCI Pro's getting their own time slot, but I strongly believe that 1/2/3 and 4/5 can race simultaneously (depending on the number of registrants and hours in the day) as their respective grouping, but then score them separately in their own Cat. If you finish 70th out of 100, you may still be 25th in your class... and that's almost like winning. I know I'd feel better about myself and want to come back if that were the case. EO for cross president.

I blame Adam Craig.
 
The 4/5 to 3/4 jump is exactly as you explained it; Those 4's in the 4/5 might be competitive in the 3/4. They can try out for free without upgrading.

Not sure I would put EVERYONE on the course at the same time, I know the MAC last year did the womens 1/2/3 with a separate Cat 3 standings. Not sure how excited people got for that though.
 
Superfly100guy said:
I don't think it's dying I just think there are so many races to choose from you can't expect people to attend every race. On the Marty's weekend we had 2 PACX events and DCCX to compete with. I believe I counted 2900 entries that weekend. This always happens in cycling where more and more events pop up til it explodes.
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This is it in my opinion too. Also, look at the number of models each manufacturer makes now and the different types. All at the same time you now have cross, enduro, fat bike season starting up or atleast training for other disciplines. You also have so many one off rides to do and I am sure the Facebook helps diversify everyone to different areas. I bet if you look at the number of people racing in general it "may" be climbing?
 
RE: Overlapping events:

Chesire Cross and HPCX Day 1 were on the same day. The only reason I bring this up (or know this) is because I saw @keithgarrison posting on social media. Looks like him + four other King Kog boys (according to crossresults) went to this race instead. I can't help but think he would influence some other NYCers to head out with him too?

Chesire Cross Total: 296
HPCX 2016 Day 1: 280

Compared to:

HPCX 2010: 490

HPCX 2014 Day 1: 360
HPCX 2014 Day 2: 266

So maybe the total numbers are out, just spread out due to people looking for different venues, staying local, etc.

 
Well this is also a problem - local racers not supporting the local races. But like @BiknBen says - why stay local to race a course you've done 83 laps on in your life and has not changed since you've been racing?

I would be interested to see how an up & coming NJ race would fare against Nittany. While it is the first event in the area, the vibe this year was non-existent and I think you would see a lot of non-elite racers opt for something new if there were viable option.

As a former cross race promoter this idea excites me. Then I remember how difficult it is to find a venue and I erase the thought from my head.
 
Norm said:
Well this is also a problem - local racers not supporting the local races. But like @BiknBen says - why stay local to race a course you've done 83 laps on in your life and has not changed since you've been racing?

I would be interested to see how an up & coming NJ race would fare against Nittany. While it is the first event in the area, the vibe this year was non-existent and I think you would see a lot of non-elite racers opt for something new if there were viable option.

As a former cross race promoter this idea excites me. Then I remember how difficult it is to find a venue and I erase the thought from my head.
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This exact thing happened at the Erie 80 this weekend. On another note, fat bikes are just a fad so cross should be coming back. You
 
Truthfully, the NJ courses have all become exactly the same and quite frankly, boring. They're all just grass crits at this point with no interesting scenery, obstacles, or terrain. Westwood is kinda cool but not as cool as the original with the sketchy wooden stairs. The run-up at Phillipsburg? Amphitheatre of Pain? The ball field in the snow? Mercer County? Cross used to be cool as f@ck. Now everyone whines to the USAC Official if there's a root in the course.
 
This is an interesting thread. Great work by @pearl for digging it up. I have some observations but they are thoroughly disjointed.
  • As a first season 'cross participant, "Cross is dead" is something that I've heard here and elsewhere but I sure as hell hope it's not true.
  • Cross is definitely alive and well in the Men's 4/5 fields. I've done every MAC race except for Charm city and the smallest field was 78 finishers at HPCX (Whirlybird was an outlier at 66). Nittany Day 1 was 115! Side note, Maybe this is the wrong time to gripe about "medals" as prizes. That 115 person field at Nittany day 1 grossed over $4k for the organizer, most likely more. What about offering free reg next year to the top 3?
  • Which leads into an observation about NJCX races: stand alone category 4 and 5 fields is not good. One of these races is going to be a staggered start with the Masters 4/5 40+ and have 75-100 riders on course at once. Why not have them all competing against each other? The whole mixed category in the same race is confusing. Why not run the NJCX cup with a Men's 4/5 field and Men's 4/5 40+ field on the course separately.
  • 80+ riders on the course is a lot, maybe too many. When a race has that many riders, the lapped riders can end up factoring into race tactics which is no fun and could be dangerous. Especially for the first timer just out having some fun then getting buzzed by a pack of 5 leaders at 18 mph.
  • I agree with @1sh0t1b33r, the whole 4/5 and 3/4 is annoying. None of the guys I'm racing against as 4's would race the 3/4 race unless they have enough points to voluntarily upgrade to a 3 then use the race as training. There should be more of an incentive to upgrade to the 3s.
  • I know race promotion is hard, especially when nobody registers until the last day but why aren't there any races closer to NYC or Philly? The closest race to either is 45 minute drive if traffic is perfect. If Liberty State Park can have a Tough Mudder or annual triathlon, why can't it have a cross race? (I know the answer is to be the promoter.) What happened to Mercer? I wish I knew about cross when I was a kid growing up in Ewing.
I definitely contradicted myself a bit but oh well. Viva la cross!
 
jimvreeland said:
Truthfully, the NJ courses have all become exactly the same and quite frankly, boring. They're all just grass crits at this point with no interesting scenery, obstacles, or terrain. Westwood is kinda cool but not as cool as the original with the sketchy wooden stairs. The run-up at Phillipsburg? Amphitheatre of Pain? The ball field in the snow? Mercer County? Cross used to be cool as f@ck. Now everyone whines to the USAC Official if there's a root in the course.
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Bubblecross singletrack is cool AF.
 
hotsauce said:
I know race promotion is hard, especially when nobody registers until the last day but why aren't there any races closer to NYC or Philly? The closest race to either is 45 minute drive if traffic is perfect. If Liberty State Park can have a Tough Mudder or annual triathlon, why can't it have a cross race?
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Because the venues want to charge you $2000 at a minimum to use the place. How do I make money with this? Answer: you don't.

I think the last cross race we ran netted us $500 which we had to split 50/50 with another club. It would have been a far better team fundraiser if we had a bake sale.
 
@Norm, I know it's a tough situation to be in as a race promoter. Almost all race promoters don't get the credit they deserve. It's a risky and thankless job. You take a huge financial risk for racers to not decide if they want to race until the Wednesday before the event.

There was a great reddit thread about race promotion a month ago. The guy who used to promote the Bethel Spring Series chimed in on the logistics and finances. It seems downright financially irresponsible to even consider race promotion. It's amazing that there are so many people who do it for the love of the sport. Truly thankful to those that do it and have done it in the past.

I often think bike racers are a bit broken when it comes to signing up for events. Coming from a running background, races typically had a tiered fee structure going up 5% every few weeks leading up to the event. It gives you perfect financial incentive to sign up early. I wish more cycling event did it. We all damn well know which races we'll be targeting long in advance. Maybe there should be the ability to sign up for an entire series in advance giving a small discount on the per race fee while guaranteeing the promoters a large lump sum of cash at the beginning of the season.
 
hotsauce said:
That 115 person field at Nittany day 1 grossed over $4k for the organizer, most likely more. What about offering free reg next year to the top 3?
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Medals already incite enough sandbagging, no monetary gain prizes for the beginner classes!

The UCI races depend on the beginner classes to pay the pro payouts which are mandated by UCI, plus you need to pay the UCI to play ball plus USAC and that doesn't even begin to pay for the venue.

A couple years back we had a convo about fees, costs and reg. Starting at #235 @Norm and @Delish had a lot share.

http://www.mtbnj.com/forum/threads/the-heckle-report.34329/page-12
 
I paid over $1000 in entry fees this year so willingness is there. I would rather pay $75 for HOH or $75 for Erie 80 and have perfection than $25 for a shittshow. A halfassevent really does nothing. Go big or go home. If you build it they will come. Is bearscat at a shortage of entrants? How about ssp?
 
I have been helping to promote HPCX for the last 8 years or so, and helped out since the first. Craig, Tom, and I have been having this conversation for the past year. In our 17 years, we have gone from fields of 10, to almost 500 riders and back down to what we saw this weekend (we had around 790 pre-reg). The numbers have gone down in most of the fields, but the biggest drop off is clearly in the 3/4s. The "killer Bs" used to be a great race with huge fields, but the numbers aren't there anymore. I think one of the reasons is the one a lot of you touched on, that it is not fun to race when you are at the back of the field each week.

I also think that the option to race elsewhere is another factor. If you can drive 30 minutes to a race or 2 hours, I think most of us would chose to drive the 30, particularly for the 4/5 race, which starts relatively early.

Another big thing is that you can race every weekend from the middle of September on. Cross is hard, and if you are racing two days a week, you are going to need to take some weekends off, so that hurts attendance as well.

Finally, with regard to course design, as a UCI race, we are somewhat limited on the features that we can include. The course needs to be a minimum of 3 meters wide (and we try to keep it wider), and there are tons of other requirements that not only limit what we can do with the course, but also the venue. We have been extremely lucky with Thompson Park as they have never asked us to cancel, even during two state of emergencies. It is really not easy to find a venue that will let you tear up their course for a weekend.

All of that being said, how do you think we (HPCX and other cross races) could improve attendance? Thanks to all of you who came out this weekend!
 
hotsauce said:
@Norm, I know it's a tough situation to be in as a race promoter. Almost all race promoters don't get the credit they deserve. It's a risky and thankless job. You take a huge financial risk for racers to not decide if they want to race until the Wednesday before the event.
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Before CXMeur we were at Horseshoe, almost exactly 1 mile from our house. The venue was a county park and asked for almost nothing as a permit fee. When your venue costs go from $2000 to $50, it's a whole hell of a lot easier to run a race. A state park would also be a great place for it - I think state park permits are like $35 or something. County parks vary. Somerset county is low. Morris county is criminal.

@lancerracer - I think 1 thing that would help your race is to have a dedicated tent area in the spot where we setup camp (and many people followed us). Sell tent space, mark it off, bring the coffee/food trucks down there. Make that area the epicenter of the universe. It would be a bit of a longer-term investment but I think worth it. I would be more than willing to lend my efforts to this cause for next year.

The Bs didn't used to go last in the MAC, IIRC?
 
I wanted to reply later to everything, but specifically to another promoter that jumps in to reply, Thank you!

I love the HPCX course. Did it every year since the 2011 snowmageddon race. I love the small changes you did year in and year out. I hate sand and loved you were able to incorporate it. A+ everything.

Honestly, not sure what you could do to improve attendance that you have control over. You have had food vendors. Your course makes great use of the terrain (not sure what UCI rules you have to follow without throwing me a rule book), you have a sprint finish, off cambers, terrain that is killer. Good parking. I compared the race I did this past weekend to yours, and I thought it was the best one I've done.

I personally do not think the combine fields and medals are what is driving the attendance down. Offering prizes or incentives to win the 4/5 races are meh. Free reg for the Cat 4/5 racer.. If they won, I would bet 99% of those people are coming back next year. They are hooked.

An interesting thing is the location of the races. I'm almost thinking of making a spinoff thread for MTB racing. The venues are mostly the same. @1speed wrote about MASS races with 50+ people in categories. WTF? I mean, they have been racing at Lewis Morris and Wawayanda since I was born. We can save that for another thread.

Based on the Cheshire/HPCX numbers, it sounds like the racers are just spread out now. Makes me think that it isn't a start time thing, or tent space thing. These can all improve the events vibe which may in turn improve the numbers for next year... but if the people aren't interested in a new venue that no one knows about (based on what Jim said), how could you improve it?

It's a strange thing where the race promoter needs the racers, but the racers/need want to have an A+ event. I'm torn between needing to attract racers/if you build it they will come vibe versus: I live 20 minutes away from a cross race, F it I'm going.
 
@Norm Craig and I were actually talking about that today as we were finishing cleanup. The area you all had set up looked awesome, and that is the atmosphere we are going for. We figure we could sell tent space or premium parking/tailgating space, give a few spaces out (to mtbnj and some other groups) and hopefully attract some other to buy a few spaces. It won't really do much to improve attendance in the short term, but over time we might get a few more racers due to atmosphere, and either way, we want people to have fun.

About the 3/4 race being at the end of the day, it was always right before the Elite races, so it would go off around 1. I think that the end of the day start time has something to do with it, particularly on Sunday. With an earlier start time, we might get a few more 3s out, and we also might get some of the 4s to move up and race the 3/4s instead of the 4/5s. The idea behind moving the Elites to the middle of the day was so that more people would be around to see them, but I think most people who are there to watch the races are there to watch their family and friends, so if you are looking to increase spectators, I think it might be better to keep the 3/4s in the middle of the day.

@pearl I am glad you enjoyed the course. I thought it was the best we have done, and we received a lot of positive feedback. The three of us really tried to make the course flow and spread out the hard efforts and the volunteers who set up the stakes did a really good job of keeping it wide with no crazy turns and only a few trees taped onto the course. The Rutgers cycling guys who come out and help us really make the race possible. They even worked during the rain last night and only started to complain after about an hour.

We went back this morning to finish up some things and organize the stakes into some new bins. We realized that the course this year used around 2000 plastic stakes and around 200 wooden stakes and about 7 miles of course tape. There is no way we could have the race without the volunteers.
 
Thanks @lancerracer for all you and the volunteers did. I've raced here for the past few years, and really liked (hated) the sand pits on Sunday last year and this year. I like the idea of a tent area, like what MTBNJ did.

Just wanted to throw that out there.
 
Norm said:
Well this is also a problem - local racers not supporting the local races. But like @BiknBen says - why stay local to race a course you've done 83 laps on in your life and has not changed since you've been racing?
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Agree with this...Cooper river, perfect example. I drove an 1hr, 45min, did the race...the course is what it is...I did it twice, im not going back to do it over and over again.
 
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