Campmor H2H change in classes

[jbogner]

I have no problem myself racing in a 10 year class, but when I am 63, I may not feel the same way about racing the 50+ class.

What I don't understand is the purpose of changing them....

Thanks Ellen. We're going to take this year and hold open forums with bike media and really talk to the racers before making a change, because if we do decide to make a change it needs to be one that everyone can believe in. Those are all very valid points and I'll pass them on to the board- everyone is reading all the mail coming in to Kelli and Lisa about it, and digesting it.

There are valid arguments on the other side, too, and I'll post the counter-argument once the statement is crafted by the board (it's being edited right now). But the nutshell answer is that the US is alone in offering national championships in 5 year age brackets. All of the European countries use 10 year brackets (England only has two- 30-49 and 50+) and no one subdivides past 50. So that leads us to ask the questions "Why do we hand out so many national championship jerseys" and "does giving so many of them out in 5 year brackets diminish the accomplishment of winning them?" Some think it does, hence the move to change the status quo. And the results bear out the fact that there are some wicked fast 55+ folks who'd be competitive with the 50-54's. Age is not as much a factor as fitness, despite what some argue.

So we'll continue to look at the various sides to this argument. If anyone else has opinions, I'd love to hear them...

 

[jkmacman]

the competition

So much for my racing career.

You mean there's a good chance I'll be racing against someone 10 years younger than me, and god forbid if you're a 39 y/o...you might be racing against a teenager?

No break downs in a 10 or 20 year span?

vb your age group is a tough lot, yes at the wyckoff y tri there was a young lad, who finished overall in the top 3, but head to head, your age group is very tough

me, i like to race up a hill the young bmxer's are knoodling, but downhill i am a light year beyound

someone today said to me

you don't have be the best, just try your best

 

[rocknrollgirl]

I have no problem myself racing in a 10 year class, but when I am 63, I may not feel the same way about racing the 50+ class.

What I don't understand is the purpose of changing them. In a series or training competition, I can see making fewer age groups so there will be enough people to race and a higher level of competition. But the future of pro racing is not in the 50+ class, so why not recognize them for what they are.

The National Championship title is the one race all year long where the masters are recognized for their age. I see no benefit to change some to 10 year. God bless the expert men out there racing in their mid 70's. They are heroes in my mind and should not be lost in the 60 year old class.

Men and women should be given an equal opportunity. It is not the fault of the women out there racing that there are not 30 in their class. It is difficult to get women and juniors out there racing. Why give them half the chance to win? 5 year age groups all across the board is an inclusive gesture to invite more in and to encourage the not so sure Cat 2 master to make the jump to Cat 1.

Well said Ellen. I do as many tri's as I do mt bike races, and I always feel like the field is more evenly matched because we have 5 year age brackets. I do not have nearly the experience with H2H as the rest of you, but with the numbers of women we had last year, it looks like someday soon they will be justified in making the change across the board to 5 year brackets.

These are difficult decisions for those in charge, and it makes me very glad not to be in that position.

 

[jbogner]

Here's more for debate- another idea that has been floated around is falling in line with the road national championships, and making the national championship fields Cat 1/2 rather than the current system of running them separately and giving the Cat 2's a "competition" jersey for winning.

Thoughts?

 

[pixychick]

Here's more for debate- another idea that has been floated around is falling in line with the road national championships, and making the national championship fields Cat 1/2 rather than the current system of running them separately and giving the Cat 2's a "competition" jersey for winning.

Thoughts?

National Championships:

I have always been in favor of one jersey class in addition to the real thing, the elite. If UsaCycling wants to increase the accomplishment of the Cat 1 jersey, I would rather see Cat 2 and Cat 3 receive something other than a jersey, before removing all the 5 year age brackets in Cat 1. I commend USACycling for encouraging newcomers and giving them a sense of success, but they may have tainted their own system, and now they want to take away from the meat of the membership. Shouldn't all competitive amateur racers strive to become Cat 1? The chance to win that jersey is the bait, or the goal.

I thought the reason they make the National Championships combined on the road is because a racer can not move up to Cat 1 without some qualifying races, and the older classes are small. In mountain biking there is nothing stopping a racer from upgrading to Cat 1. So although following the road rules of combining 1 & 2 sounds good, I don't know if it matters that much, but it may be worth a try. I do not object to it, but there is always the issue of course length. I would hope that the class should be encouraged to run the standard distance and not shorten the races to accommodate the Cat 2's.

 

[Pokgirl]

It's a good idea Pix. It will give older riders (not to mention any names) more of a chance to place and hopefully bring newer riders to the sport of blood, sweat and gears (unless your a SS like ChrisG) :Edit: After posting I read what the guys were writing, last year the Women's 19-34 Beginner and Sport classes had way fewer riders than the 35+ class. I also know that age is not a significant factor in MTB racing.

RC ...

RC, I think it might be lonely in a 40+ age group... from what I feeble brain can remember, there were two regulars in that age bracket last season. CORRECTION: three

 

[RacerChick]

RC, I think it might be lonely in a 40+ age group... from what I feeble brain can remember, there were two regulars in that age bracket last season. CORRECTION: three

She's Aliveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ! Hey Pokgirl, where ya been? I've been trying to think of who is 40+ in our class. Who's the regulars? Me, you, Lynn, god I hate assuming who is 40+ it's like the kiss of death lol

RC ... :hmmm:

 

[rocknrollgirl]

Me.....but I do not do all of the races.

 

[chemgirl]

Well, I am one of the racers getting screwed by this all. I went from being one of the youngest in my class, to being one of the oldest (for the next 3 yrs!!).

At 37 yrs old I'll now be racing against teeneagers and people in their 20s (whom in my experience are at their physical peak). With three kids, there is no way I'll find the time to ride as much as they get to and be able compete with these gals physically. I'll probably do one more year, but this will probably discourage me from racing in the future. I'll just have to wait and see how the first race goes.

I know you can't please everyone, just wanted to voice my opinion.

 

[RacerChick]

Well, I am one of the racers getting screwed by this all. I went from being one of the youngest in my class, to being one of the oldest (for the next 3 yrs!!).

At 37 yrs old I'll now be racing against teeneagers and people in their 20s (whom in my experience are at their physical peak). With three kids, there is no way I'll find the time to ride as much as they get to and be able compete with these gals physically. I'll probably do one more year, but this will probably discourage me from racing in the future. I'll just have to wait and see how the first race goes.

I know you can't please everyone, just wanted to voice my opinion.

Chem, I can't speak for you, but age in MTB racing is just a number. Take a look at the times from the Sport races from the H2H this year, you might be suprized.
RC ...

 

[Pokgirl]

She's Aliveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ! Hey Pokgirl, where ya been? I've been trying to think of who is 40+ in our class. Who's the regulars? Me, you, Lynn, god I hate assuming who is 40+ it's like the kiss of death lol

RC ... :hmmm:

Hi RC!

Well, this past series it would have been Lynn, you, Marianne who completed the series in the 40+ bracket. But then looking at who will be 40+ this year, Hubby was so kind to point out that it would be me too, even though I won't be 40 until the series is basically over! Thanks Honey!!

Oh, and I have been on biking/exercise hiatus for a month, getting nice and rested (one would hope), aka fat!

 

[Pokgirl]

Pixy or Somebody,
Maybe I am missing the logic. Can someone explain to me why there is a change/shift in age classes?

What if other series maintain the under 35/over 35 age classes - isn't it strange that H2H is doing something different?

 

[rocknrollgirl]

Chemgirl, I feel your pain. I would not be happy if I were you. That is a huge age group.


psssttttt, come do triathlons with me....

 

[pixychick]

Hey ladies, I would not get too upset, this may be in your favor.

USAC uses 10 year age group splits. I promise you, you do not want 10 year spilts. We did that for a few years ago, and there were 1-2 women in each class. Every second place women quit after a few races because there was no room for competition. It also forces women to move up too fast or to sandbag and discourage others. This is racing, and it should be fun everyone.

Last year we modeled the classes based on a poll from this site. I think most of you realize that the 35 + is not necessarily slower or less competitive, we just want to split the class evenly in numbers to relieve traffic. There will not be any teenagers scoring with you this year because we have added a sport JR class. The problem with the age split at 35, is that 35+ class was too large. The average # of racers was over 8 and as many as 14. The under 35 average was 5, and that was just sport. The changes are made to benefit the whole race community not just the sport class. More competition will make it harder, but it will also keep you from moving up to the expert class too fast. Don't forget all the women moving up from Beginner. I've looked over that also.

Next year is an all new year, and may not be like this year at all. Please don't close your mind before you get to the start line. When I moved up to expert at 39, I truly believed that I would never win a race ever again, but would be proven wrong. 37 is a prime racing age! Don't let anyone tell you, that you are old.

Thanks for the feedback keep it coming. We do consider whatever we feel will make the series better.

here are some I remember:

If a race promoter is comtemplating splitting up the girls into two groups, let's say if the group is larger than X, and I agree with that, then some thought has to be given on which group goes first. I didn't race today, so I can't quote those results. But I think I can generalize from the previous H2H races that the bulk of the 35+ sport women finish up towards the front. We had to pass a bunch of younger women in the tight singletrack at Stewart. There is always going to be some younger women that are faster and some older women who are slower, so you just have to go with the majority numbers.

My 2 cents.

It was great to see so many women out there, esp. sports class. Woohoo! Gonna have to break up the age groups better very soon... it is getting too big...

I think that the women's sport field was large enough to split the age groups and send us out 2 mins apart or whatever the stagger was. They did it at Stewart and it was much appreciated. I believe it was done for the experts and a small group was sent out. Needs to be done with us too please.

Other than that, could you please do something about the weather?

Seriously, well done.

on the contrary, I wished our expert group had not been split. Its all personal.

 

[rocknrollgirl]

This is good discussion....

 

[Pokgirl]

Hey - did I really say those things? Thanks for listening!

we just want to split the class evenly in numbers to relieve traffic.

Great idea IF we really do start staggered (only happened in one race that I was in).

You are definitely right, Pixy! No telling what next year will bring - case in point - Gerilynn... (sorry to call you out!). We hung out together way in the back / bringing up the rear two years ago, and last year she was kicking butt! I improved by leaps and bounds MHO this past racing season, and still I think I caught her once. No telling who will improve, and on the other hand, who will not train as hard for life's reasons. I definitely want to know that my age group has a good number of women, because I want the competition to keep me motivated!! Otherwise, I would have to move up, and those competition prospects don't look encouraging (can't you 40+ experts slow down a bit for me?? )

I just thought it would be strange if I didn't compete against some 35-39 year olds in H2H, but then did compete against them in another series. Of course I don't know what those other series promoters will do next year, but they haven't announced any changes that I have seen, so I was wondering why to move away from what seems like standard 'local race' age brackets.

P.S. I lost my live-in babysitters, so it will be difficult next season to maintain the same level of fitness I had this past season... you just never know how it is going to shake out!

 

[Shar0se]

Well, I am one of the racers getting screwed by this all. I went from being one of the youngest in my class, to being one of the oldest (for the next 3 yrs!!).

At 37 yrs old I'll now be racing against teeneagers and people in their 20s (whom in my experience are at their physical peak).

I've been following this but haven't said much since I only raced once this season but the bigger brackets (for example 19-39) made me upset for the opposite reason- in endurance events people peak in their 30s so the 24 year old is actually at a major disadvantage against a 36 year old. They can't even really be compared.

I also totally agree with Pixy- the more opportunity to succeed the better. In order to get the part you have to dress the part- if we want more women we have to set it up as though we already have more women, eventually then they will come- self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Cyclopath]

I think this may be the right move to reduce the size and maintain a competitive class for sport women. But to the beginner women a switch to 40+ will leave that class in the situation pixy described so well...

"Every second place woman quit after a few races because there was no room for competition. It also forces women to move up too fast or to sandbag and discourage others. This is racing, and it should be fun everyone."

However you slice it, someone is going to feel a pinch.

And, I didn't want to say this but you made me... How many 40+ women in their right minds would even think of hopping on a mountain bike at such an advanced age and go slamming through the woods on two wheels? Not many, I assure you. And without naming names, I know at least one who would be happier if they only had to admit to being 35+ and childish rather than 40+ and senseless.

 

[RacerChick]

Oh, and I have been on biking/exercise hiatus for a month, getting nice and rested (one would hope), aka fat!

Oh yea Heidi, I'm sure your just putting on the pounds, what do you weigh now 102 lbs! :hysterica

I remember at the Darkhorse Gallop (where I decided to break my collarbone) we had 14 riders at the line. It was intense to see all that talent.
I think the new age groups should work out fine. This year I raced a full Cyclocross season and we would have an average of 15 racers and some races as many as 50+! 95% of women who race cyclocross also race on the road. Just this past Sunday at the Phillipsburg Cross I was racing with Gabby, she was off course going thru the caution tape yelling ... "I can't make right handed turns!" :rofl: We need to somehow get more women riders to come out an try Mountain bike racing. Possibly promote an all Women race with really cool prizes that go 10 deep rather than just 3 earlier in the season might attract some new racers, just a thought.
RC ...

 

[PlayAllDay]

Any age group is fine with me. I'm just there to improve my skills, fitness and have fun. Unfortuanatly, I probably won't get any training in this winter as I just had ankle surgery a month ago (2 years after breaking it/misdiagnosed), just got off the crutches today and have to wear a boot for another month. And my doc said today that it will be 3 more months before I'm allowed to be active...hopefully he changes his mind about that one.. But, I may need another surgery in a few months if this one doesn't work- a bone & cartilage replacement. So, I hope to be racing, although I'm sure I won't be as fit as I could be. But that's fine as long as I'm having fun.