The Future of wheel sizes on Hardtails
- Thread starter jdog
- Start date
MikeP
Well-Known Member
As a company you wanna have variety but not too much. I was a snowboard buyer for my old shop in the mid-late 90s when companies starting offering way too many models. When you have too many choice for retail buyers and consumers you're producing some models that don't sell thru and you're left selling leftover inventory at discounts to get rid off it. From a business standpoint you want offer enough diversity AND sell most of your inventory. From a consumer standpoint(we're bike geeks we can absorb all the info) 3 wheel sizes is a hard story to tell for shops and confusing for the customer. It's much easier to tell 2 stories, comparing and contesting the benefits of 2 wheels sizes.
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THATmanMANNY
Well-Known Member
What I mean is I just can't have one wheel size and be happy with it. I wish it were that easy. I probably wouldn't be flipping mtb's so much.
Put me on the spot
there are just way too many variables. But from a MEDIUMS perspective...26 XC HT - I'll never ride again. Speed is scrubbed so easily by any bump
650b HT vs 29 HT
-IMO where I feel the most difference is climbing. I would pick a 650b for steep climbs or climbs with features to tackle. Generally 650b accelerates up a climb better but also offers enough rollability on the way down. It accelerates better but the 29 is faster when you are pass that threshold where the momentum from the wheels help. I just don't like the floppy front on most 29s and I feel the 650b is better at turns/twisties. Anything with moderate climbing (any park past 78 and CR & Sourlands) I would ride 650b. 6MR is touchy. Love 29 speed. Hate how they turn there and with the most recent kickers you added... the 650b is just more fun.
However, I had a blast demo'ing the TranceX29er. I think that is actually a good compromise... the FS makes a 29er a lot more fun. 29 wheels don't fit in the pumps well but so much better when you can preload front and back and spring off them.
As much as a 650b FS appeals to me. I don't think I'll get one. 26FS and 29FS are two different animals that drive different "feelings". The 650b covers too much middle ground where it's boring. You don't get enough excitement from riding something that does everything okay.
Am I talking out of my ass, probably.
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1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
I don't really get why a 29er FS would feel so different. I've never ridden one on a trail, so I am not questioning the opinion so much as honestly wondering how one feels. I think someone mentioned that it feels like a truck. Does it really feel that different? I get that you are activating a long "lever" with the suspension (which, all else being equal, could make it feel sluggish), but wouldn't that be offset by not going as deep into your travel with a 29er on bumps that the larger wheel can roll over more easily on its own? Or are you saying that the only advantage to a 29er over a 26er in general is that the bigger wheel rolls over larger obstacles and that advantage is mitigated by FS making the nimbler 26 inch wheel is a better option? Or, is it that the technology used for a FS 29er lags behind that for a 26er for some reason?
I guess what I'm wondering in general is how FS does anything to negate what I perceive as the dual advantages of the larger wheel -- better acceleration and rollover capacity. Some applications that place a premium on snappy, instantaneous response from the bike -- like downhill and (maybe?) enduro -- might always be better served by a smaller wheel, but for general trail use, with all else being equal, wouldn't the bigger wheel almost always be a better option?
I guess what I'm wondering in general is how FS does anything to negate what I perceive as the dual advantages of the larger wheel -- better acceleration and rollover capacity. Some applications that place a premium on snappy, instantaneous response from the bike -- like downhill and (maybe?) enduro -- might always be better served by a smaller wheel, but for general trail use, with all else being equal, wouldn't the bigger wheel almost always be a better option?
i don't think so. what i lack in ability comes through when i'm not comfortable on a bike.
when i go to pump through some of the whoops at 6MR, or when i try to tackle a technical ascent (like a rock garden that is similar to going up a pile of bowling balls) at the sourlands, i am much more comfortable on my 26 than i was on my 29.
since it really is about the rider and not the bike, those small differences where a bike feels a little "weird" to me gets amplified when i am in over my head on a trail. i am pretty much an average rider as far as ability goes, so the way my bike feels matters more to me (than a pro). i could definitely knock out a sandy steep at allaire better on the 29er (the rear wheel really would hook up better than a super knobby 26), but i feel i ride better at the sourlands on a bike that feels smaller for some reason. i like to feel like i'm almost too big for my bike in technical stuff, kinda how some people fit DH bikes. so my personal comparison of hardtail 26 to hardtail 29 landed me feeling better on the 26. i doubt im any faster but i'm not using speed as the "better" criteria.
Yes, yes, we all know you are some kind of science and outerspace expert. All that aside, maybe it feels different simply because of the wagon wheels on 29ers? You can't deny the larger feel.
Monkey Soup
Angry Wanker
Yes, it feels different. The discrepancy in wheel base is greater on an FS vs. HT in most cases because you have to incorporate a pivot and a shock. Having rear suspension also magnifies weight transfer, so lifting that front wheel and moving the bike around is more difficult on a longer wheelbase 29 than 26. Alot of these newer, allegedly better handling, long-travel 29ers are making a big deal out of the fact that the makers have found some way to shorten the rear chainstays, which makes handling on those bikes better. As far as rolling over stuff goes, there comes a point when the terrain gets gnarly enough where your wheel size doesn't matter, and its all about the ability to physically move the bike around, up, and over. Thats where the 26 feels much better. If your already on 5-6 inches of travel, what more help do you need rolling over bumps? At that point you should want handling.
wonderturtle
Well-Known Member
i didnt vote since i dont care to comment about what other people "should" ride.
considering my height (6') and type of riding (relatively non-technical XC), a 29er is the only way for me. 26" feel like kids bikes to me now. but if others like it, so be it.
but it IS part of J's job to suggest what people "should" be riding, so...
considering my height (6') and type of riding (relatively non-technical XC), a 29er is the only way for me. 26" feel like kids bikes to me now. but if others like it, so be it.
but it IS part of J's job to suggest what people "should" be riding, so...
1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
I'm feeling attacked by this post. My intellectual curiosity has been met with scorn, thus causing me to generalize that objective curiosity shall be met with derision and a general lack of acceptance all the time. My concern is that I will hereafter turn inward, developing my own theories to address things I do not understand and I shall withdraw from society as I print my opinions and unsupported beliefs in my notebooks in very small font, comfortable in the stagnation of my mind and content to let alternative theories that happen across my field of vision as I scan the internet in my dark basement late late at night to be dismissed outright as the babble of "non-believers". Years later, after forced interactions with society yields what my extended family will only discuss in hushed tones as "the incident", perhaps the only evidence I shall leave scrawled in blood on the sidewalk after the face-off ends in tragedy for so many will simply be, "Ask STB22" ...
wonderturtle
Well-Known Member
...a tortured genius
I remember hearing once that if a person's IQ is 'x' points higher than yours, that you mentally cannot understand or comprehend what that person is saying. It is possible that this is one of the moments, so this is either the most brilliant thing I have ever read or the dumbest, but I am content not caring which one.
1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
Umm ... whaddya mean by that? ...
. Keep that in mind.
MikeP
Well-Known Member
I'm 5'5" and feel perfect on my Misfit small w/ a 100mm Reba on it. There's a few frames out there that can accommodate the 5'-5'5" crowd on 29ers. I don't feel like my front end is too high and love the fit of my bike. If you look at my 26' bike my seat is lower than the bars....same thing on my 29er (I have short legs and a longer torso). With my Top Fuel 8 the seat is almost level with the bars and with the Missy the seat is a bit lower. But the Misfit suits my riding style perfectly, I feel like I'm back on my old Killer V. I don't think breaking out model wheel sizes by bike size is a good thing. I know it's been done on some tiny road bikes using 650 wheels in the past. Here's my 2 bikes side by side, incidentally the Top Fuel will be up for sale soon:
Attachments
don
Well-Known Member
Sounds about right. Hell, way back when there were a few cats that ripped trail on 24" rear wheels. What area where you in? I think JD is a Millstone local and can destroy any rider in all around skill. If he doesn't beat you going up he will kick your ass going down and 10-12 footers would look like curbs to him. Last I knew he was still on a 26" HT but riding clips. But there are a lot of those "throwback" style riders up there - crazy how much skill they have.
For the topic: I just bought a 26" FS frame for trail biking. I have a 26" HT for DJs but ride with 20" riders mostly and was thinking of bringing out the 24" one weekend. I would love to build a HT XC bike and if and when I will look at 650 wheels and have the CS tight as hell. I would be on a large frame (6' tall)
Just seems like for the last several years I have been reading the same posts... hardtails are dead, 29ers rule... blah blah
Hey I ride 26ers- I like them. I do not like 29ers
Never tried a 650B but I have frames and forks that appear to be able to convert.
I like there are different wheel sizes out there- everybody should ride a bike that fits and they enjoy riding
I also like the look on people's faces when I blast up climbs that have obstacles my tiny wheels shouldn't be able to roll over... ;-)
I also like the fact several people have recently asked how I like the 650B bike- I don't have the heart to tell them it is a 26er!
Hey I ride 26ers- I like them. I do not like 29ers
Never tried a 650B but I have frames and forks that appear to be able to convert.
I like there are different wheel sizes out there- everybody should ride a bike that fits and they enjoy riding
I also like the look on people's faces when I blast up climbs that have obstacles my tiny wheels shouldn't be able to roll over... ;-)
I also like the fact several people have recently asked how I like the 650B bike- I don't have the heart to tell them it is a 26er!
gtluke
The Moped
I would love to see some bikes with a 650b out back and a 29 in the front. People are too stupid to buy bikes with different sizes wheels, you know, like motorcycles.
I can deal with the floppy front end of a 29 but I can't stand the compromise of chain stay, seat angles, and bottom bracket drop on 29er rears, especially on full suspension. Which is why I've always had a 26in bike. For a while I had a 69 but I'm back on a 26. I'll keep my 29er hard tail though. Would like to try 650b but I don't want to buy more crap.
I can deal with the floppy front end of a 29 but I can't stand the compromise of chain stay, seat angles, and bottom bracket drop on 29er rears, especially on full suspension. Which is why I've always had a 26in bike. For a while I had a 69 but I'm back on a 26. I'll keep my 29er hard tail though. Would like to try 650b but I don't want to buy more crap.
Dusty the Whale
Mr.Chainsaw
Bravo
Back to the future.
There is no need to take any of this as a personal attack in any way. The truth is that at least 2 of the largest bike mfgers in the world are going to be 100% done with 26" by 2015. Those decisions have been made. Tires, fork and wheel production numbers are dropping. This was the first year that Stan's sold more rims in 650b than in 26". They are selling more 29er than 27.5" by a large margin. At least for now anyway...
My real motivation here is to see if 27.5 should be for all riders or should we see wheel sizes scaled by height on hard tails. Specifically on bikes below $1000 where this may be the riders first mt bike, do you think that a scaled wheel to riders height makes sense??
The poll results show that so far, the vast majority of voters would choose a scaled system with overlap for med riders who might choose to go either way. This system of course makes it easier on vendors with less sky's to manage.
Of course smaller builders may make 29ers in xxs and some may do 27.5 in XXL, but the target here is not super high end.
There is no need to take any of this as a personal attack in any way. The truth is that at least 2 of the largest bike mfgers in the world are going to be 100% done with 26" by 2015. Those decisions have been made. Tires, fork and wheel production numbers are dropping. This was the first year that Stan's sold more rims in 650b than in 26". They are selling more 29er than 27.5" by a large margin. At least for now anyway...
My real motivation here is to see if 27.5 should be for all riders or should we see wheel sizes scaled by height on hard tails. Specifically on bikes below $1000 where this may be the riders first mt bike, do you think that a scaled wheel to riders height makes sense??
The poll results show that so far, the vast majority of voters would choose a scaled system with overlap for med riders who might choose to go either way. This system of course makes it easier on vendors with less sky's to manage.
Of course smaller builders may make 29ers in xxs and some may do 27.5 in XXL, but the target here is not super high end.
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