What new thread is Patrick creating now?

JPark said:
I don't think the lack of 20-40 year old riders is as bad as it seems. The assumption is being made that a 30 year old non-rider will never start riding.
My regular riding group is all guys who didn't get into MTB until they were 40+. (that's why we're just average riders)
A lot of 25 year olds are working on their careers, maybe living in a city or saving up for a house, saving up for an engagement ring and don't have 5k to drop on a bike.

Golf has always drawn an older crowd, maybe MTB is similar?
Click to expand...

This is a fair point. The median age of MTB riders is 42. I'd be willing to bet more of the younger side skews towards gravity which this forum doesn't really cater to...nor does the younger crowd do standalone forums at all. The Strava group for our local trails with 300 members has more 20-30 year olds than this forum. NJ FB groups the same. Which brings me to:

Johnny Utah said:
I used to spend a lot of time at Allaire - five to seven days a week. The 20-40 years old's got the impression the members of this site were "crotchety old men"
Click to expand...

There's definitely a sentiment out there towards that. No idea the solution. Chicken or the egg type stuff.
 
Johnny Utah said:
I used to spend a lot of time at Allaire - five to seven days a week. The 20-40 years old's got the impression the members of this site were "crotchety old men" - maybe I am. My eco-Karen / trail-Karen vibe probably didn't help too much - but I was not alone. I primarily used to work on the trail on rainy days - it was very disheartening to see other members ride on wet/muddy days only to come back on the board and yell at those who did (I am hoping this was just a few of you). I felt like Ralphie in the Christmas Story when he found out his Little Orphan Annie decoder pin just led him to a commercial - but such is life. Skunked Again! This site seemed more "trail-conservative" where the Facebook groups seem more like the dark-web. We push rules and order (well some of us), FB pushed "Chaos" - build jumps, ride in the rain, run ebikes, build fires (damn that all sounds fun!). Even after all of this - the trails are still there.
Click to expand...

There's a lot of content in this thread, so I'll pick and choose things to discuss. It's going to be impossible to respond to it all.

I think it would be more accurate to call people sarcastic old men. And you replied directly above with a post that actually highlights the same. The site started as a collection of sarcastic people that split from the MTBR forums. We knew each other, we rode together, we busted balls. That's always been the tenor here. Some can handle it, others cannot. You specifically mention MBM but he and I still talk, exchange texts now and again. I think he would be the first to admit that his personality does not necessarily lend itself to a message board. It's easy to take things out of context, etc. He dialed back because (I believe) he knew it wasn't possible for him to just let things roll off his back.

We have always changed usernames, be it long-term or short-term. I know people are going to disagree with me, but this is how you are effectively brought into the illuminati. Take someone like Arwen's Mom - there was NFW anyone would ever touch her username because it was obvious it would be taken poorly. I mean FFS my username here was given to me in college. I was nicknamed after the fattest alcoholic in the history of network television. My nickname is, objectively, a major insult. But it wasn't intended that way, nor was it taken that way. Anyway, changing Rob's username was because he was an accepted regular. We were busting balls and seeing him as 1 of us. I will also point out that I had absolutely no idea this bothered him. We can sit in silence and be offended, or can stand up and say something. I will add that DT does not understand the above. I made plenty of efforts to bust on him as if he was one of the guys, and it was not taken that way. Since then, I'll say 99% of the time I ignore him. Sometimes I cannot help myself but we're going in 7 years of playing the victim here. It's probably time to get over it. What are we looking for? Financial reparations? Shit is long in the rearview mirror, man. We have heard this same story 850 times now.

And in reality, ask yourself this question. If the people who run the site are not allowed to be the personalities that they are without people whining about it, what sort of time investment can you expect from them? We're basically at a point where no matter what I do, or don't do, it's wrong. I am wrong 100% of the time. As a reminder, I make $0 from this whole thing. So I get shit on, 100% of the time. For free!

Discouraging - yes it is a thing. I have used it in the past. Yes I did it to DT when he went off the GD wall a few months ago and Patrick discussed with me then undid it. I also did it for Rick because - hey sorry to be a crotchety old man but - Rick is an asshole online. I truly do not remember doing it to you, Johnny. I am not the only admin here, so it may have been someone else? I have put you in the box before, and I don't think you ever 100% disagreed with me for doing that.

So anyway, after the meteor landed and wiped out the dinosaurs, I think the grumpy old men thing comes from this exact scenario:

New user: OMG do you guys know about these things called WINTER SHOES?!
The "grumpy" old men: Oh FFS...

And it goes from there. Yes yes yes, I know this is not the best way to reply to the new enthusiastic user but we're all human. This is the thing that escapes you with these arguments, I believe. It's ok for the users & posters to be human and fallible, but not the "good old boys" that run the site. Anyway, I should move on. I am getting annoyed that the expectations on people like me & Pat and whoever the hell else is an admin is significantly higher than people that come to the site.

I'll stop there. Yeah I'm now a little grumpy. Thanks for allowing me this self indulgent diatribe. I'm going to walk around the neighborhood looking for babies to punch now.
 
Johnny Utah said:
@Norm In my opinion - this is a Prime example of some of my first posts on page one of this thread. While I am not going to go into everything @Dave Taylor represents in his post above I will note this:
  • Dave Taylor is a prime user of the site - he creates content, shows up to races and participates in MTBNJ group events such as week-day rides/TM.
  • He is willing to share everything
  • Further, I have NEVER seen Dave be negative in person, he is always willing to help. The guy cheers people on when they pass him in a race!
  • If Dave did not have thick skin, I think he would have been gone years ago (Maybe some people were hoping he was not so resilient). Others Like @Mountain Bike Mike and his brother Rob were given similar treatment from the boys club like there were nuts - all gone - these members went to the MTBNJ races and participated here but were 100% ganged up on. They were never replaced - over the last ten years how many others like this did the site/community loose? Those users were friends with other riders as well, that felt the same and boycotted this.
Does Dave posts some wild stuff - yes he does, but it does offer another state of mind. In my opinion, @Patrick is on the same track, just different material/content - but he has the keys to the castle. For me, when Dave posts I roll my eyes - but I read it.

I have zero doubt Dave's user account has been slowed down so he cannot post here or has issues doing so, it has been done to me. I am sure this is a much better PR friendly way to silence someone rather than the very public Ban/Time out that many of us made public and fought back on such as myself and @thegock . For example, the site works fine, but when you go to log in the speed slows to a 1,000th of what it is when not logged in. Clear cookies - they are clear and EVERY OTHER site I log into works fine, just this one. Dave is not crazy on this point - gang up on him all you want. In days past, when someone was blocked, the drama started (#freeTHEgock or #freeUTAH) - but with the slow down, it appears the user is just not interested in posting or defending themselves. Total BS.

Adjusting people's name and how they represent themselves without thier control is 100% bullying - this at a time when the site went DEI and PR friendly - people were getting banned/blocked for what the mod's felt was out of line, yet the mod's were bullying themselves. It is/was a 100% hypocritical move. I know @RobW (I think his name was changed to Flaubert?) was pretty upset about this as well. Do as I say, not as I do.

It is easy to say Dave is still here and allowed to participate, but my goodness has he been bloodied and beaten along the way.

The community has had other issues like this they turn a blind eye to or choose to ignore. Having volunteered at Allaire for maintenance since 1997, we used to have groups of 40+ people at maintenance days - lucky if there are five now or if the event is held and not canceled. Along the way there were plenty of people willing to help and put real time in - but they were all pushed out. Even simple things like getting sent out for "chainsaw training" - that went to select people that were in the boys club. The park has fallen - I used to trim A LOT of the park but have since moved away - no chainsaw training invite for me, in fact I was told I can't use power tools in the park because I am not trained. I volunteered there for 25+ years and have a college education in horticulture/soil science plus ten years field time operating 150,000 acres of farm ground across a wide scope of soil types, but since I didn't go to IMBA training for a weekend I have zero idea what I am talking about - OK. Some of the same people who were ostracized there went onto build a vast majority of the rouge trails in that park - I am not saying that is a good or bad thing.

Part of the succession plan was pushed out or discouraged. When it comes to the website/social media thing it is easier for them to start a Facebook group - if they are pushed out on a Facebook group the barriers of entry to start a new Facebook group is small - it starts up the same/next day. On MTBNJ.com I get it, there is a major investment in this website as well as the network of relationships made (sponsors/JORBA/Park Mangers/NICA, etc.). But that power is fading (or has). I think part of the cronies/old boys club have moved on - there is opportunity to rebuild.
Click to expand...
These are all fair points, but I do need to comment that Rob is Mike's cousin not brother, however I did rLOL at that. Don't even get me started about park fiefdom's as they are real. I get it, you need to protect your egg and set some ground rules, however all of these parks are public lands so its no wonder most people don't want to listen to some old head tell them what to do. And yes, I am that person to someone at the parks I work at.
 
Last edited:
I started following this discussion and been writing and rewriting a response that I hope is constructive and shows maybe a point of view with regards to this forum and its content.

I joined this forum after getting into MTB riding for real as part of NICA in 2017. Someone told me about this MTBNJ team and I observed from afar for a few months and then took the plunge and signed up and raced (first time ever) at a few of the MTBNJ Short track races (see my profile). I think I even got 3rd place at one of them because 2 people DNFd. We even did one in the snow and it was like 9F outside. This fits into the general stats of taking up MTB riding in my mid 40s.

Over the last 7 years (wow that long) I have since bought a more legit MTB (from someone on this forum), done a few races, rides, events, and even become friendly with more than a few people on this forum as a result of other things than MTB. and even then sometimes I ride MTB with these same new people I would never have met if I was not on this forum. I would say some of my BEST rides/group rides on a MTB are with this group. I even got a little better at actually riding a MTB as a result of these rides because the more experienced folks are quick to offer helpful assistance, while at the same time bust my balls at every opportunity (Gock: hey Ian I noticed your skills are really improving, especially the times you stop and walk and get back on the bike - much faster; you should take up XC racing next) 😁

While I am a IT Tech person in my professional career, I don't really like social media (in fact I hate it for the most part). I have been tracking this discussion and it's been very interesting to me since I consider myself one of the people who probably contribute a lot of non MTB content (resident roadie? wanna be MTB rider?).

I won't ever be a hard core MTB rider/racer like some of the folks here, but the social part of this forum is what keeps me coming back. I get a lot of laughs on this forum, i give back a lot of sarcastic or funny comments as I get and its a form (forum?) of entertainment or information or tech assistance in what I feel is a more safe and trusted space than a random FB group. If that's not what it was intended for and it should only be hard core MTB blogs and race updates, I am pretty sure I would not be on here much if at all. And thats not a negative feedback to mean if it was that way it would be bad, it just would not be for me.

I have to add Kudos to Norm, Patrick and the other Admins that run this site, for $0 who have to put up with whatever comes along with it (good or bad) - again not targeted at anyone or anything.

Hope that perspective adds some value and its not a rambling stream of consciousness.
 
Norm said:
There's a lot of content in this thread, so I'll pick and choose things to discuss. It's going to be impossible to respond to it all.

I think it would be more accurate to call people sarcastic old men. And you replied directly above with a post that actually highlights the same. The site started as a collection of sarcastic people that split from the MTBR forums. We knew each other, we rode together, we busted balls. That's always been the tenor here. Some can handle it, others cannot. You specifically mention MBM but he and I still talk, exchange texts now and again. I think he would be the first to admit that his personality does not necessarily lend itself to a message board. It's easy to take things out of context, etc. He dialed back because (I believe) he knew it wasn't possible for him to just let things roll off his back.

We have always changed usernames, be it long-term or short-term. I know people are going to disagree with me, but this is how you are effectively brought into the illuminati. Take someone like Arwen's Mom - there was NFW anyone would ever touch her username because it was obvious it would be taken poorly. I mean FFS my username here was given to me in college. I was nicknamed after the fattest alcoholic in the history of network television. My nickname is, objectively, a major insult. But it wasn't intended that way, nor was it taken that way. Anyway, changing Rob's username was because he was an accepted regular. We were busting balls and seeing him as 1 of us. I will also point out that I had absolutely no idea this bothered him. We can sit in silence and be offended, or can stand up and say something. I will add that DT does not understand the above. I made plenty of efforts to bust on him as if he was one of the guys, and it was not taken that way. Since then, I'll say 99% of the time I ignore him. Sometimes I cannot help myself but we're going in 7 years of playing the victim here. It's probably time to get over it. What are we looking for? Financial reparations? Shit is long in the rearview mirror, man. We have heard this same story 850 times now.

And in reality, ask yourself this question. If the people who run the site are not allowed to be the personalities that they are without people whining about it, what sort of time investment can you expect from them? We're basically at a point where no matter what I do, or don't do, it's wrong. I am wrong 100% of the time. As a reminder, I make $0 from this whole thing. So I get shit on, 100% of the time. For free!

Discouraging - yes it is a thing. I have used it in the past. Yes I did it to DT when he went off the GD wall a few months ago and Patrick discussed with me then undid it. I also did it for Rick because - hey sorry to be a crotchety old man but - Rick is an asshole online. I truly do not remember doing it to you, Johnny. I am not the only admin here, so it may have been someone else? I have put you in the box before, and I don't think you ever 100% disagreed with me for doing that.

So anyway, after the meteor landed and wiped out the dinosaurs, I think the grumpy old men thing comes from this exact scenario:

New user: OMG do you guys know about these things called WINTER SHOES?!
The "grumpy" old men: Oh FFS...

And it goes from there. Yes yes yes, I know this is not the best way to reply to the new enthusiastic user but we're all human. This is the thing that escapes you with these arguments, I believe. It's ok for the users & posters to be human and fallible, but not the "good old boys" that run the site. Anyway, I should move on. I am getting annoyed that the expectations on people like me & Pat and whoever the hell else is an admin is significantly higher than people that come to the site.

I'll stop there. Yeah I'm now a little grumpy. Thanks for allowing me this self indulgent diatribe. I'm going to walk around the neighborhood looking for babies to punch now.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm - I mean this constructively - so in this sense we are noting we all have personalities and we like to bust chops. I think some of the real issues in my eyes started in the late 2010's when - let's just generalize here and call it "censoring" started. Certain people were allowed to be themselves and bust chops/be themselves, others were not. I forget what happened, but I think the first was Luke - who had great content and I believe was a team member, I think Patrick replaced him and started to undo whatever work he did - I was part of that as I use to moderate the buy/sell forum (given the keys to that side by Luke) - Patrick shut me down shortly after Luke left and told me it was his world - okay.

There always seems to be someone who is singled out - then pushed out. Once that person is gone we are onto the next or at least searching for one with out replacing them - obviously the people singled out are fairly vocal and present. Recently that seems to be Rick, now that he is gone I am wondering who the next target will be (maybe I should be looking over my shoulder).

For Dave Taylor, I get it that you are trying to show love, he obviously does not like it - but yet it continues - I think he may outlast the crotchety old men. Dave is resilient and has thick skin, but like a drowning person thier actions to save themselves get more and more drastic as desperation builds - Maybe that is what we see here? While a drastic example and not the best, it is the best I can come up with right now. Love Dave, but the negative New Jersey comments have a limited audience that are willing to be receptive - still Love Dave.

As for Rick - I think he can be a dic* just like many on here - the differentiating factor is his political beliefs which do not match the majority on the board. Rick could handle the criticism, those with the controls could not take what he provided in return. In my opinion, this is evidence of this not being an open and accepting community - it is open to those who agree with the collective. Rick was willing to help out with things that bound the community - such as the base race and group rides. He was ostracized.

The mods doing this for nothing? Zero $? I like the sale, but honesty knows there are Goodwill Benefits here - be it influence in the industry/trail network/community as well as being able to sleep at night. Even when I was riding a lot, racing the fat series and putting tons of maintenance time in at Allaire I received goodwill benefits such as bikes/parts at cost/purpose/healthy body. This is a pretty good size forum - it is open and opens itself to the public through the forum as well as outside events like rides, races and the MTB Festival.

Pre-2015 free thought was promoted regularly, as censorship became the norm (no pun intended) there were bad actors that pushed the envelope in protest. The Utopian society is failing. I get it that message boards die (long live HCOR.net), but this is a unique message board. We all ride bikes in the State and see/pass each other while doing so, many communicate here. Indoor riders have Zwift and the like and connect there - we have this forum and the trails. The community on this site advertises being open, but the collective idea of open has a very narrow window if you really want to participate on a regular basis. As users are kicked out or pushed away, the cycling ponzi scheme needs new users, but due to the environment in the cycling industry that becomes difficult to replace as they are not there. A stuffy bunch we are.

Has anyone ever read "The Beach" by Alex Garland or seen the movie? Seems fitting.

My concern grows as the NJ Park System continues to close trails - I see a lot of it in southern NJ (Atlantic/Burlington County) and have even seen it recently in Six Mile. As our numbers and unity falls, it opens a vacuum for other interest groups to come into the park with a louder voice (and frankly, more money). Volunteer hours are down, park usage is up - the community is loosing the ability to assemble as a whole. This forum is a pulpit for the community and the current face of it wanted to rent an excavator and drive it into a tributary.

1720803055969.png
 
Johnny Utah said:
As for Rick - I think he can be a dic* just like many on here - the differentiating factor is his political beliefs which do not match the majority on the board. Rick could handle the criticism, those with the controls could not take what he provided in return. In my opinion, this is evidence of this not being an open and accepting community - it is open to those who agree with the collective. Rick was willing to help out with things that bound the community - such as the base race and group rides. He was ostracized.
Click to expand...

This is not why I did it. Plenty of people here do not share my political beliefs - people on my team who come to our Xmas party among them. It was the need to post gibberish on every thread, every hour. If he were here now he would be pissing and shitting on this conversation, saying that NJ is a garbage state, and who knows what else. Having met him in person, it is my strong belief that Rick entertained himself by intentionally being a troll because he was retired and bored. For me, that was the proverbial straw.

FTR, in the past, 100% of people who have tried sock puppet accounts are banned. Always. DT is the single exception to this rule.

And ok fine, I do get perks from the bike industry from time to time. Most notably were the 40 virgins on my front porch just now when I came back from doing TM at CR. I will not try not to sprain my shoulder while I pat myself on the back for giving back to the trails in the midst of a good old-fashioned internet debate.

Also, fuck work.
 
Pearl said:
Oh man I read this whole thing and this popped up right when I finished, you really think norm or Patrick is making your log in slower? This is amazing
Click to expand...
100%. They "fixed" it. I had one account that logged in fine and one that would take forever to do anything. Same PC, same IP.
 
Johnny Utah said:
For Dave Taylor, I get it that you are trying to show love, he obviously does not like it - but yet it continues - I think he may outlast the crotchety old men. Dave is resilient and has thick skin, but like a drowning person thier actions to save themselves get more and more drastic as desperation builds - Maybe that is what we see here? While a drastic example and not the best, it is the best I can come up with right now. Love Dave, but the negative New Jersey comments have a limited audience that are willing to be receptive - still Love Dave.
Click to expand...
Thanks for having my back.Hey, I can be passive aggressive at times. I probably have ADD hence the not letting things go. I don't like being bad at something and will generally drill myself into the ground trying to get better at it even if it means putting EVERYTHING else on hold. Sucks sometimes but in person I want to see happy faces. That negative NJ stuff was more of me expressing seeing how crazy busy this state is compared where I live now. Kinda saying I didn't miss it. I miss the people in NJ and some small things like pizza, bagels and Hartshorne but moving out of state opened my eyes to a lot of stuff I don't miss anymore. The funny thing is my best friend went against me in that thread and he was one of the most negative people on NJ when you talk to him in person. Always yelling at people while driving, saying he can't wait to get out of this state etc. Then I actually say my feelings and he attacks me. I'm. ok with difference of opinion and may even try to sway you but I am not an asshole.
 
Norm said:
And ok fine, I do get perks from the bike industry from time to time. Most notably were the 40 virgins on my front porch just now when I came back from doing TM at CR.
Click to expand...
@onetracker is this reward system specific to CR, inquisitive minds want to know. Also, is that number down form 72 (inflation related) or a different thing altogether?
 
I'm super bummed to read that people feel shunned by the perception of an ole' boys club in JORBA. @Johnny Utah how were you blocked you from chainsaw training? I've had visibility of all classes that we've paid for since we've done them, and not once caught wind of someone being turned away. Help me a populate a list of 10 people willing to commit to training (minimum to book a class) and I will make it happen. Same with the grant. If a ball was dropped, I can assure you it was not intentional.

@Norm - if you read your email or jumped on a monthly board meeting you would know the Allamuchy chapter status. <3

Things get done by people who show up. There will seemingly always be those who criticize from afar, and that's ok. Those who show up presuming positive intentions, with an open mind and heart, will find that we're all mostly the same; similar challenges, similar dreams, similar priorities. If everyone who rides MTB in NJ put all of their preconceptions and BS aside and joined JORBA simply because it gives MTB a voice, we would be in a much better place.

As for the board-specific stuff, it is what it is. When Norm and the gang took over from Jason after JORBA turned it down, many "JORBAns" thought it wouldn't last. I loved seeing them proved wrong, and have met some of my closest friends through biking and this place. I've always seen it as a cross section of the MTB community here in NJ, but recognize that it is an aging system of comms.

Love you all,

"They"
 
PS - JORBA is hiring. No pay, all welcome. See something you don't like w/JORBA or have ideas that you are willing to follow through to fulfillment? Throw your name in the hat. Show up.
 
@KenS , I just want the old JORBA logo back…
But seriously, I started the thread that started this latest shitstorm so I should play.
I’m the first to admit that I’m a bit of a Luddite when it comes to this interwebs thing.
What I do know is that the internet is a place where people take stuff way too seriously on social media and message boards like this.
What all brings us to MtbNJ is a love of bikes and riding said bicycles. I love that bikes bring together people of different ages and walks of life.
I was busting just Patrick’s chops with Harts getting moved from Central to South Jersey and people ran with it.
You guys do a great job of moderating this unruly mob here and I don’t envy you for that.
I’ve apparently been here since 2007 so I’ve seen some shit stirring here over the years. I mostly leave sarcastic comments like a good Gen Xer is supposed to but at the end of the day we all should play nice, there’s too much BS in world to get upset about someone’s different opinion.

I’ll leave you with this…IMG_6323.jpeg
 
mwlikesbikes said:
@KenS , I just want the old JORBA logo back…
But seriously, I started the thread that started this latest shitstorm so I should play.
I’m the first to admit that I’m a bit of a Luddite when it comes to this interwebs thing.
What I do know is that the internet is a place where people take stuff way too seriously on social media and message boards like this.
What all brings us to MtbNJ is a love of bikes and riding said bicycles. I love that bikes bring together people of different ages and walks of life.
I was busting just Patrick’s chops with Harts getting moved from Central to South Jersey and people ran with it.
You guys do a great job of moderating this unruly mob here and I don’t envy you for that.
I’ve apparently been here since 2007 so I’ve seen some shit stirring here over the years. I mostly leave sarcastic comments like a good Gen Xer is supposed to but at the end of the day we all should play nice, there’s too much BS in world to get upset about someone’s different opinion.

I’ll leave you with this…View attachment 242776
Click to expand...
Amen. Can we chill the eff out?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom