NYNJTC trifold in the office at WaWay

[TimBay]

Totally not the case. Around 3300 people like the page and we have 630 members so there is definitely a gap.

I also am not an expert in SM so maybe asking to call your mom every time turns more people on that off. In fact, I'm sure it does.

Did you call your mom?

Did the rest of you join JORBA?

Join / Renew Membership

jorba.org

I'm just thinking along the lines of "how can you make it as easy as possible". The easier you make something, the more likely you are of getting someone to do it. I'm pretty sure I joined based on a post on here that had a link for me to click. Maybe I would have searched Google, maybe not? But it was made easy.

I could ask the fb group if there are any social media marketing folks that might donate a small piece of their time for this endeavor? Just let me know.

 

[rick81721]

Honestly, that is an unfair comment. I have always said, one things that NJ did right (maybe the only thing) is create park land and open space. Now that doesnt equal good trails but there are quite a few parks in NJ with great trails and many different options, especially if you live in central or north jersey, in a relatively small geographic area. I really think people take it for granted.

This is true. I have no clue what VT trails are like (never rode there) but one thing I like about the top mountain bike parks here in FL is the mountain biking only trails. I guess that is probably not an option in densely populated NJ

 

[KenS]

Honestly, I kind of followed your post up until the above comment where I lost you. I can't wrap my head around it. Did you build these illegal jumps in your own backyard/property? How else can you manage them otherwise? Kind of straying away from the issue here though...

I think this issue falls down to a balancing act for people who enjoy riding trails. By trails I mean DJ spots. In our state, and around our region, there are trails nestled into many "remote" green spaces. In NJ remote doesn't necessarily mean backcountry, but means "people just don't go there much." There is one that has quite literally 30+ thousand hours (or more, impossible to quantify) of work, and has been there for decades. The jumps look like they were constructed by artists or stone masons, and honestly the work is truly artistic. How many on this forum know a spot like that?

The reason why they endure is because they aren't in a place people go, and certainly not in a place with 1000's of passes a week by multi-use trail folks. they police themselves, and injury rates are low. Lots have progression lines, or 411 on a spot that you can progress into the bigger spots. You find the trails by being invited, and when you get invited you dig if you want to ride. If you dig a lot, maybe you'll eventually get the keys to the cables.

I don't like discussing this on a public forum, but I do it to illustrate that there are indeed really amazing places to ride DJ trails in NJ; so many that there is probably one in YOUR town. Is it illegal? Yes. Do I condone it? No, but I understand. Will they ever get bulldozed? Maybe, but it will be because someone broke the rule mentioned above, not because someone without the requisite skill unknowingly "sent it dood."

People building features on public land accessed by thousands of people per week, especially those run by the state (with whom JORBA has a wonderful relationship with btw), are doing it wrong at the very best. To someone who has worked for nearly two decades to preserve and expand legal access to NJ multi-use and mtb specific-use trails as legitimate stakeholders, you are displaying selfish, entitled behavior and giving our entire community a bad name and threatening current and future access.

 

[KenS]

It is easy to see why. At Baldpate, there was a bunch of illegal trail building going on. Coincidently JORBA came in around the same time and got blamed for all of it. Some of the land managers don't really care what the truth is, they just need to identify some a person or a group. Maybe the person that was rep'ing JORBA was a double agent and got caught, who knows.

"Double agent" happens sometimes, and that is something I embrace. Some "behind the scenes" trail builders are tremendously talented, but as young folks were anti-establishment. As they age and gain some wisdom, they sometimes seek avenues to build a legacy, or they see an opportunity to work openly and legitimately, or any myriad of reasoning to "go legit." They can eventually influence folks to build legit at a much younger age.

 

[KenS]

This is true. I have no clue what VT trails are like (never rode there) but one thing I like about the top mountain bike parks here in FL is the mountain biking only trails. I guess that is probably not an option in densely populated NJ

Sort of an apple/watermelon comparison in terms of geographic size and open space, but I hear you.

Florida's foundational trail system is Santos, and OMBA does a great job working with the state as a legitimate stakeholder in the Greenways. Single-use is the law of the land on the greenways to eliminate user conflict. From a open space point of view, Florida has a lot more than we do and that single use system has been replicated throughout the state as a common practice.

Florida, NJ and VT by square mileage, with pavement showing darker on the maps:

65,758 mi²


8,729 mi²


9,623 mi²

 

[KenS]

There's more to it in some ways.

For sure. We have a lot more people (already clearly discussed in this thread) and a higher average household income by around $20k. This leads me to believe that getting out of NJ to experience something different and more quiet happens more frequently than folks coming here, and they typically come here for different reasons. Freeze thaw cycle ends earlier here; VT, and most mountain states for that matter, have a defined riding season. We do not, and a vast majority of the time we are 100% rideable months before them.

There is also something to be said for wanderlust. I absolutely love riding my local parks (within a hour), but rarely enjoy them as much as a trip to someplace with similar quality trails that i ride once a year, or that is completely new.

 

[KenS]

I'm just thinking along the lines of "how can you make it as easy as possible". The easier you make something, the more likely you are of getting someone to do it. I'm pretty sure I joined based on a post on here that had a link for me to click. Maybe I would have searched Google, maybe not? But it was made easy.

I could ask the fb group if there are any social media marketing folks that might donate a small piece of their time for this endeavor? Just let me know.

join.jorba.org rolls off of the tongue really well.

 

[KenS]

I just added myself to that YDKSAMTB group.

Those folks seem really nice, but I can not wrap my head around the name of the group. They make an attempt to justify it in the description, but ultimately it comes off as elitist. Not that it is some issue I plan to take up or something, but since I am here figured I would mention it. I can't see standing in front of a politician saying "our friends from the You Don't Know Shit About Mountain Biking Group have......" while keeping a straight face.

 

[rottin']

@KenS I appreciate the thoughtful responses on this thread, and the discussion in general. I always learn from your posts.

 

[KenS]

@KenS I appreciate the thoughtful responses on this thread, and the discussion in general. I always learn from your posts.

Thank you. I struggle sometimes with posting publicly in fear of alienating some part of our community, or worse having my words taken out of context for political gain.

This thread has been enlightening for me too. We haven't yet found a way to truly unite the NJ scene, but discussions such as this get us closer. At the very least we are laying out the issues. That's progress, and progress is good.

 

[serviceguy]

Thank you. I struggle sometimes with posting publicly in fear of alienating some part of our community, or worse having my words taken out of context for political gain.

This thread has been enlightening for me too. We haven't yet found a way to truly unite the NJ scene, but discussions such as this get us closer. At the very least we are laying out the issues. That's progress, and progress is good.

I don’t think this discussion leads to any alienation, it’s impossible to make everybody conform entirely to a standard so it’s more useful to find whatever things we have in common and try to build on that. A generic statement I know, but you’re not going to get me into DJ anytime soon! I think it’s important to make it clear that where there are state rules and territory shared with other communities there should be a more strict compliance, where there’s no conflict and tolerance of more of an edgy behavior than maybe the envelope can be pushed a little. Always keeping an eye to the ever changing landscape. And again I think it should be better known who does the work and makes it possible for all of us to ride whatever trail we love.

 

[KenS]

I have been and still am on both sides of this and something similar was happening at Baldpate before things blew up there. 2010, a bunch of illegal building (no, it wasn't me) on 3 trails. JORBA tries to ramp up at Baldpate around same time, gets blamed for it, relationship gone.

The other side of it is, one of those trails became a main connector and is used by all trail users. It is a relatively well designed trail and any of the bad spots I have fixed over the years. Now I am really close to having it made legal once some pending improvements are completed.

This is something I missed responding to earlier but is an important topic - "unauthorized" trails eventually being adopted by the land manager. Thanks for pointing it out @stb222

When this happens, usually the trail is well built and in a place that makes great sense/adds value to the system. That alone might lead folks to believe that this is a solid strategy; build without permission, eventually get it officially added to the inventory.

The problem however lies in the process, optics and down sides. For every "good" trail adopted, a multitude of others are closed because they aren't built sustainably or cross into places that the land manager can not justify. It might hit wetlands, negatively impact endangered species, or be too close to the secret alien ship that they have stored on the property. Bottom line - some rogue trails trails will be adopted, but they will almost always carry a stigma and negatively impact our relationships with the land manager and other stakeholders. The ROI is not there.

Additionally, sometimes the legit builders are undergoing a process to plan a new trail. They build a relationship, develop a plan, submit the plan. Maybe they walk the proposal with the land manager's rep. Maybe they need to acquire permits, or get a survey completed by the DEP to ensure minimal impact. This may take a year, it may take 5. In the meantime, random people with no care for the process lay out their vision for a trail in the same area, and rake it out on the down low. Net result is often an uninspired trail on a portion of what was planned, or something way out of scope that the land manager will want removed/closed. Again, relationships suffer. Add features to the mix, and we not only have strained relationships with the folks who approve trails, their risk managers get ahold of the info and access is jeopardized.

 

[Cassinonorth]

Honestly, that is an unfair comment. I have always said, one thing that NJ did right (maybe the only thing) is create park land and open space. Now that doesnt equal good trails but there are quite a few parks in NJ with great trails and many different options, especially if you live in central or north jersey. And all in a relatively small geographic area. I really think people take it for granted.

I feel this way as well even as a resident of Essex County. I can drive within 45 minutes to some amazing trails with a whole bunch of variety. They're not quite on the level of VT's best trail systems but they're also not in a completely different league either.

Those folks seem really nice, but I can not wrap my head around the name of the group. They make an attempt to justify it in the description, but ultimately it comes off as elitist. Not that it is some issue I plan to take up or something, but since I am here figured I would mention it. I can't see standing in front of a politician saying "our friends from the You Don't Know Shit About Mountain Biking Group have......" while keeping a straight face.

Name is beyond cringey.

 

[Xler8]

Honestly, that is an unfair comment. I have always said, one thing that NJ did right (maybe the only thing) is create park land and open space. Now that doesnt equal good trails but there are quite a few parks in NJ with great trails and many different options, especially if you live in central or north jersey. And all in a relatively small geographic area. I really think people take it for granted.

It wasn’t meant to be fair or unfair, just a personal observation.

 

[Norm]

For sure. We have a lot more people (already clearly discussed in this thread) and a higher average household income by around $20k. This leads me to believe that getting out of NJ to experience something different and more quiet happens more frequently than folks coming here, and they typically come here for different reasons. Freeze thaw cycle ends earlier here; VT, and most mountain states for that matter, have a defined riding season. We do not, and a vast majority of the time we are 100% rideable months before them.

There is also something to be said for wanderlust. I absolutely love riding my local parks (within a hour), but rarely enjoy them as much as a trip to someplace with similar quality trails that i ride once a year, or that is completely new.

Bringing this back up. I work with people in NE and every one of them admits they never travel. Everyone we know travels to ride. But to people in NE, NYC is this massive roadblock and they simply are not used to getting in the car and going anywhere. One guy I work with goes to the White Mountains a lot. So you know, the leash is like 2 hours. There's just a different mindset that I find between the regions.

 

[Cassinonorth]

There is also something to be said for wanderlust. I absolutely love riding my local parks (within a hour), but rarely enjoy them as much as a trip to someplace with similar quality trails that i ride once a year, or that is completely new.

There's definitely something to the "new system" shine for sure....but there's also just more fun trails. I grin ear to ear when I go to Port Jervis and I've been there 4-5x in the last year. There really aren't trails as fun as Cosmic Charlie or Painted Aprons in NJ unfortunately. All the doubles are discrete easily roll-able and the use of terrain is fantastic.

Closest would be probably Stephens and that's super popular for that reason. Is there any reason we cannot build more trails akin to Tally Ho or Skeezix?

 

[Norm]

Is there any reason we cannot build more trails akin to Tally Ho or Skeezix?

Simple answer: the parks won't let us.

Why not: probably because we have 650 members and there does not "seem" to be a large enough voice. If 10,000 people wrote to the governor demanding bike-specific trails, he would probably ignore them but maybe 1 day that would change.

I'm sure it's not that simple. Sort of like if you needed to put a road through a cow pasture. First step? Move the cows. It's more complicated than that but if you don't move the cows, you can't put in the road.

I would suggest the JORBA slogan go from, "You Dig?" to, "Move the cows."

 

[Cassinonorth]

Simple answer: the parks won't let us.

Why not: probably because we have 650 members and there does not "seem" to be a large enough voice. If 10,000 people wrote to the governor demanding bike-specific trails, he would probably ignore them but maybe 1 day that would change.

I'm sure it's not that simple. Sort of like if you needed to put a road through a cow pasture. First step? Move the cows. It's more complicated than that but if you don't move the cows, you can't put in the road.

I would suggest the JORBA slogan go from, "You Dig?" to, "Move the cows."

Guess that makes sense. More JORBA members!

 

[robmaurizi]

When I picked up my new bike at Tenafly a few weeks ago, I got a packet of paperwork and in it was a 8.5 x 11 glossy JORBA flyer w/ a QR code that presumably takes me to the website... Is this a standard JORBA thing now, or is Tenafly taking it upon themselves to promote membership? Would love to see more shops get on board w/ this if you bought a mountain bike (and offer some kind of incentive for joining).

 

[Bleeder]

When I picked up my new bike at Tenafly a few weeks ago, I got a packet of paperwork and in it was a 8.5 x 11 glossy JORBA flyer w/ a QR code that presumably takes me to the website... Is this a standard JORBA thing now, or is Tenafly taking it upon themselves to promote membership? Would love to see more shops get on board w/ this if you bought a mountain bike (and offer some kind of incentive for joining).

That was an effort of TBW that we are working on expanding.