NYNJTC trifold in the office at WaWay

[Norm]

Without judgement, please let opinions and criticism be shared openly without quickly defending - which would then deter further open discussion.

Totally fair, and we need to listen to what people are saying. There's a good reason why NJ and VT have similar usage numbers and VT has 11x the membership. Also note that a ton of the VT usage is non-VT residents which also makes it more of a stark comparison.

We/JORBA can do a better job at being open about some things. What @KenS lays out above is perfectly valid. As a park lead, if the park says something needs to go, you aren't going to tell them to go scratch because you want the park to work with you/us. We just need to socialize that. I think people understand.

Instead of quoting it repeatedly let me just link this here:

Trail Etiquette Tips from an Old Burnout

A few choice words on how to not be an A-hole on the trail

www.outsideonline.com

RULE 7, folks. If you are so stupid that you cannot comprehend this, don't complain if your shit gets taken down. Good god some people are dumb as bricks.

Actually that whole article is something that resonates with me. I will sum it up for the people that are too lazy to read it:

1. Don't be an asshole
2. Chill the F out
3. Don't be an asshole

Also, if you are following this thread and still have not joined JORBA, you are guilty of both 1 and 3 above.

Join / Renew Membership

jorba.org

 

[Matt_]

My intent is not to deter open discussion or create more division, but I will always defend trail stewards from off-base criticism. It is part of a much larger discussion, but our community has issues which hold back progress and it's time we address them.

To be clear, I wasn't criticizing (you know me well and I think you know that).

Just confirming what was previously quoted since I've been on the front lines trying to explain everything you've posted. It seems to fall on deaf ears.

 

[KenS]

To be clear, I wasn't criticizing (you know me well and I think you know that).

Just confirming what was previously quoted since I've been on the front lines trying to explain everything you've posted. It seems to fall on deaf ears.

For sure @Matt_ I was addressing the people hating on JORBA for the Allaire debacles over the years, not you as the messenger. You, JT and the fam have been huge supporters of legit maintenance there for a long time and of the community in general.

 

[pixychick]

• Random people* build high-skill requirement/high risk feature on public property without permission from the land owner.
• Feature is in a high traffic park, along a high traffic trail
• Random people* ride feature, and post it all over social media
• Park catches wind of said feature, and asks the trail stewards for assistance in dismantling it
• Trail stewards push back because they are not the trail police, but ultimately help out so they can appease the land manager and get back to doing normal maintenance
• People* blame trail stewards

Unauthorized building alongside public trails jeopardizes everyone's access. If you want to ride dirt jumps, do what dirt jumpers have been doing since it has been a thing: build on private land. Dig to ride. The amount of members of a social media based group or the amount of likes received on a super dope edit of you getting sick air on a gap doesn't help our community gain more access or permission to build sanctioned features. Hard work, patience, advocacy and shaking a lot of proverbial hands does.

*These are people we all know, some of whom make their living hawking bikes. Why do we turn the other cheek when they call out people working their butts off to build relationships with land managers while they do lazy builds alongside public trails, then have the audacity to call out the people doing it legit? I am so tired of it.

You can be sure this strikes a nerve with many of us. Being a steward requires a certain amount of responsibility, not to mention cooperation between many groups of other managers, not just this type of biker and that type of biker. As much as I criticize the few selfish entitled hikers that will carry that attitude to the grave, there is some of that in bikers too. It saddens me, and I do not have any idea on how to change this. As long as the majority of mountain bikers appreciate what I do, I keep going. Thanks Ken for having our back. These type of situations can be a make or break situation for our precious volunteer leaders. It is good that Jorba tries to please the membership, but there will always be some that want more than we can give on any certain day. And tomorrow is always another day.

 

[stb222]

A year or five(?) ago JORBA got blamed for the destruction of the gap jumps near the power lines at allaire.

Can confirm that there are plenty of people who equate JORBA with anti-fun trail policing 😕

• Random people* build high-skill requirement/high risk feature on public property without permission from the land owner.
• Feature is in a high traffic park, along a high traffic trail
• Random people* ride feature, and post it all over social media
• Park catches wind of said feature, and asks the trail stewards for assistance in dismantling it
• Trail stewards push back because they are not the trail police, but ultimately help out so they can appease the land manager and get back to doing normal maintenance
• People* blame trail stewards

Unauthorized building alongside public trails jeopardizes everyone's access. If you want to ride dirt jumps, do what dirt jumpers have been doing since it has been a thing: build on private land. Dig to ride. The amount of members of a social media based group or the amount of likes received on a super dope edit of you getting sick air on a gap doesn't help our community gain more access or permission to build sanctioned features. Hard work, patience, advocacy and shaking a lot of proverbial hands does.

*These are people we all know, some of whom make their living hawking bikes. Why do we turn the other cheek when they call out people working their butts off to build relationships with land managers while they do lazy builds alongside public trails, then have the audacity to call out the people doing it legit? I am so tired of it.

Ken, these are really great comments.

I have been and still am on both sides of this and something similar was happening at Baldpate before things blew up there. 2010, a bunch of illegal building (no, it wasn't me) on 3 trails. JORBA tries to ramp up at Baldpate around same time, gets blamed for it, relationship gone.

The other side of it is, one of those trails became a main connector and is used by all trail users. It is a relatively well designed trail and any of the bad spots I have fixed over the years. Now I am really close to having it made legal once some pending improvements are completed.

Totally fair, and we need to listen to what people are saying. There's a good reason why NJ and VT have similar usage numbers and VT has 11x the membership. Also note that a ton of the VT usage is non-VT residents which also makes it more of a stark comparison.

We/JORBA can do a better job at being open about some things. What @KenS lays out above is perfectly valid. As a park lead, if the park says something needs to go, you aren't going to tell them to go scratch because you want the park to work with you/us. We just need to socialize that. I think people understand.

Instead of quoting it repeatedly let me just link this here:

Trail Etiquette Tips from an Old Burnout

A few choice words on how to not be an A-hole on the trail

www.outsideonline.com

RULE 7, folks. If you are so stupid that you cannot comprehend this, don't complain if your shit gets taken down. Good god some people are dumb as bricks.

Actually that whole article is something that resonates with me. I will sum it up for the people that are too lazy to read it:

1. Don't be an asshole
2. Chill the F out
3. Don't be an asshole

Also, if you are following this thread and still have not joined JORBA, you are guilty of both 1 and 3 above.

Join / Renew Membership

jorba.org

@KenS makes some really good points.

Some of the small "features", grade reversals (table tops), water diversion bumps (rollers) or whatever you want to call them may be ok, and accepted, in a public park and there are creative ways to design this stuff. However, anything that can be classified as a jump (i know that varies by person/group) just doesn't belong in a public park, unless it has been approved. The issue becomes people don't see the difference between a 1' kicker and a 4' lip. All the sudden you have people building doubles and like anything, it gets bigger and bigger. Before you know it, you have a 8' high starting ramp built out of toothpicks with 20' doubles.

When that Outside article is talking about secret spots on public land, they are refencing HUGE parks with many unused areas, not allarie and not six mile. Places like that get so much traffic, your secret will get blown up. I am not going to say there are not parks in NJ that have areas like that...

Most of the dirt jumps I know and have built at, are built on some land and are 100% illegal and they are managed as such. If you want to jump, build your own spot, or starting helping at an established spot, just don't be an idiot and build it at state or county park.

 

[TimBay]

We/JORBA can do a better job at being open about some things. What @KenS lays out above is perfectly valid. As a park lead, if the park says something needs to go, you aren't going to tell them to go scratch because you want the park to work with you/us. We just need to socialize that. I think people understand.

I got into it with someone on FB for saying how Jorba hated fun or something like that. I don't think they understand the above or that you are operating at the mercy of the park system. I also don't think they understand the backoffice work that takes place to help the sport. This forum is often preaching to the choir, so I think social media pushes like all the Facebook groups would be good. I saw Robin shared a Jorba post to some groups, but the Jorba post didn't include a link to the sign up form. I'd suggest including a link in every post to make it easier for those reading to sign right up. I liked the page and intend to share the content to GSMB going forward.

 

[Norm]

I got into it with someone on FB for saying how Jorba hated fun or something like that. I don't think they understand the above or that you are operating at the mercy of the park system. I also don't think they understand the backoffice work that takes place to help the sport. This forum is often preaching to the choir, so I think social media pushes like all the Facebook groups would be good. I saw Robin shared a Jorba post to some groups, but the Jorba post didn't include a link to the sign up form. I'd suggest including a link in every post to make it easier for those reading to sign right up. I liked the page and intend to share the content to GSMB going forward.

The picture from the HBFT? I posted that on the JORBA page but I also don't want to be like "JOIN JORBA" at every step of the way. CALL YOUR MOM TIM!

Like if I told you to call your mom every time I posted you would be annoyed. Did you call your mom yet?

This is how I feel when other orgs do this. I specifically refuse to renew some memberships that go over the top. I especially refuse to renew when I get messages like, "Hey I know you just gave us $50 but can you give us $50 more right now? And did you call your mom?"

Hey dude did you call your mom yet?

 

[pixychick]

I do not think the issue is that "people should not build jumps without permission on public land", but "why does Jorba get blamed for being the bad guy? " when all they are doing is following the rules of being a stakeholder of public land use.

 

[serviceguy]

Most of the dirt jumps I know and have built at, are built on some land and are 100% illegal and they are managed as such. If you want to jump, build your own spot, or starting helping at an established spot, just don't be an idiot and build it at state or county park.

Honestly, I kind of followed your post up until the above comment where I lost you. I can't wrap my head around it. Did you build these illegal jumps in your own backyard/property? How else can you manage them otherwise? Kind of straying away from the issue here though...

 

[TimBay]

The picture from the HBFT? I posted that on the JORBA page but I also don't want to be like "JOIN JORBA" at every step of the way. CALL YOUR MOM TIM!

Like if I told you to call your mom every time I posted you would be annoyed. Did you call your mom yet?

This is how I feel when other orgs do this. I specifically refuse to renew some memberships that go over the top. I especially refuse to renew when I get messages like, "Hey I know you just gave us $50 but can you give us $50 more right now? And did you call your mom?"

Hey dude did you call your mom yet?

I mean, yes and no to this. You could have it a couple spaces down and just a bland "to join jorba click...". Separating it could make it less invasive and in your face, but still have it there for those who want it. That's just my simple opinion and definitely subjective. I've no experience in social media marketing. Also, I suppose people viewing the jorba page are already part of jorba. Lol. So I can just do the link on my page when sharing, I suppose. We get like 20-30 new members per week, so I fully intend to push somewhat of a recurring campaign on the page.

 

[shrpshtr325]

I mean, yes and no to this. You could have it a couple spaces down and just a bland "to join jorba click...". Separating it could make it less invasive and in your face, but still have it there for those who want it. That's just my simple opinion and definitely subjective. I've no experience in social media marketing. Also, I suppose people viewing the jorba page are already part of jorba. Lol. So I can just do the link on my page when sharing, I suppose. We get like 20-30 new members per week, so I fully intend to push somewhat of a recurring campaign on the page.

put a blurb about joining in the email that they were approved? explain what they do and why joining is good? (just an idea, rtell me why it sucks)

 

[Norm]

Also, I suppose people viewing the jorba page are already part of jorba.

Totally not the case. Around 3300 people like the page and we have 630 members so there is definitely a gap.

I also am not an expert in SM so maybe asking to call your mom every time turns more people on that off. In fact, I'm sure it does.

Did you call your mom?

Did the rest of you join JORBA?

Join / Renew Membership

jorba.org

 

[serviceguy]

The picture from the HBFT? I posted that on the JORBA page but I also don't want to be like "JOIN JORBA" at every step of the way. CALL YOUR MOM TIM!

Like if I told you to call your mom every time I posted you would be annoyed. Did you call your mom yet?

This is how I feel when other orgs do this. I specifically refuse to renew some memberships that go over the top. I especially refuse to renew when I get messages like, "Hey I know you just gave us $50 but can you give us $50 more right now? And did you call your mom?"

Hey dude did you call your mom yet?

I mean, yes and no to this. You could have it a couple spaces down and just a bland "to join jorba click...". Separating it could make it less invasive and in your face, but still have it there for those who want it. That's just my simple opinion and definitely subjective. I've no experience in social media marketing. Also, I suppose people viewing the jorba page are already part of jorba. Lol. So I can just do the link on my page when sharing, I suppose. We get like 20-30 new members per week, so I fully intend to push somewhat of a recurring campaign on the page.

Are you thinking along the lines of people strongly wanting to join JORBA but not finding the link to do so?

I think that people need to be convinced that they need to join JORBA first, they will find the link and join then. I mentioned JORBA to a co-worked that recently got started on the trail, it took him about a nanosecond to find JORBA once I mentioned it.

When new MTBers get to the parks they don't necessarily think 'I must find out who built and maintains these trails, hence I must contribute to whatever association they belong to so they can keep up the good work', they most likely think it's their tax money at work (for state and county parks at least) so they are entitled to do whatever they want with the park.

I think the magic should happen where they ride, when they ride. How, not 100% sure.

 

[stb222]

I do not think the issue is that "people should not build jumps without permission on public land", but "why does Jorba get blamed for being the bad guy? " when all they are doing is following the rules of being a stakeholder of public land use.

It is easy to see why. At Baldpate, there was a bunch of illegal trail building going on. Coincidently JORBA came in around the same time and got blamed for all of it. Some of the land managers don't really care what the truth is, they just need to identify some a person or a group. Maybe the person that was rep'ing JORBA was a double agent and got caught, who knows.

 

[Xler8]

Well said, and our state, being so paved over and crowded, will never embrace outdoor tourism at the scale of VT. You are likely correct regarding percentage of folks participating in outdoor activity too, but that data is not easily found. Using what is available to us, Trailforks and Strava, here is a snapshot of MTB use in both states:

Trailforks:

NJ
Average Trail Rating – 74/100 with 34,616 votes
Trails 2,642
Total Distance 3,734 miles
Reports 17,720
Photos 4,844
Ridden Counter 169,395

activitytype	trails	distance	global rank	photos	reports	routes	ridelogs
Mountain Bike	2,020	1,591 mile	#24	4,659	17,692	184	141,948

VT
Avg Trail Rating – 81/100 with 50,319 votes
Trails 2,834
Total Distance 3,019 miles
Reports 28,077
Photos 3,031
Ridden Counter 375,446

activitytype	trails	distance	global rank	photos	reports	routes	ridelogs
Mountain Bike	2,062	1,387 mile	#14	2,985	27,908	177	132,888

Strava heatmap:
View attachment 158837

I think it is safe to say that we have similar amounts of people getting outside, arguably more. This is why I am presenting the disproportionate membership data between the two organizations.

This is interesting information, but the one thing that’s hard to put a number to is the quality of the trails. Folks from NJ drive to VT so they can ride better quality trails not necessarily more trails.

 

[JimN]

Folks from NJ drive to VT so they can ride better quality trails

 

[stb222]

This is interesting information, but the one thing that’s hard to put a number to is the quality of the trails. Folks from NJ drive to VT so they can ride better quality trails not necessarily more trails.

Honestly, that is an unfair comment. I have always said, one thing that NJ did right (maybe the only thing) is create park land and open space. Now that doesnt equal good trails but there are quite a few parks in NJ with great trails and many different options, especially if you live in central or north jersey. And all in a relatively small geographic area. I really think people take it for granted.

 

[ekuhn]

I really think people take it for granted.

Ive done some "traveling" for work - work during the week and come home Friday - for a few months at a clip. Maryland was a good example - where I was there was one rideable MTB park within an hour. No real trail markings, but a paper map at the parking lot. That was really it. Living in CNJ there are 10 parks within an hour. I ended up bringing my road bike and rode on the shop ride they had every week. This opened my eyes to how many options we are lucky enough to have.

 

[Norm]

Folks from NJ drive to VT so they can ride better quality trails not necessarily more trails.

There's more to it in some ways. Last Labor Day weekend we took the whole family up for 3 days or whatever.

Eat good food
Ride Cady Hill or Adams Camp
Hike Mansfield or the Stowe Pinnacle
Solid shops in town



So you have this whole package thing going on with Stowe specifically that very few places can compete with. Is any 1 piece of this destination worthy? Not sure about that. Add them all up and you have a great long weekend though. That said, we're not competing with Stowe. Maybe Ascutney.

 

[serviceguy]

There's more to it in some ways. Last Labor Day weekend we took the whole family up for 3 days or whatever.

Eat good food
Ride Cady Hill or Adams Camp
Hike Mansfield or the Stowe Pinnacle
Solid shops in town



So you have this whole package thing going on with Stowe specifically that very few places can compete with. Is any 1 piece of this destination worthy? Not sure about that. Add them all up and you have a great long weekend though. That said, we're not competing with Stowe. Maybe Ascutney.

Maybe taking a 'wider' approach including in the discussion the local administration/businesses in addition to just the land management (if they don't coincide)?

I read somewhere about Ringwood trying to evaluate possible ways for bikers to reach the parks trails from the local strip mall so that they would park in an area with services (restaurant, supermarket etc.). I need to find the link to the article. Granted, the amount of services currently available in Ringwood are not many nor spectacular, but I guess you have to start somewhere. I'm sure it took some time for the VT business to get some traction.