Campmor H2H Ringwood Race

Let me start by saying I haven't read all the other posts. I have skimmed a few, but I want to speak my opinion without being influenced by what others have written.

The race at Ringwood was one of the post poorly organized races I have ever attended, and RVCC should be ashamed of their lousy organizational skills. From the big details down to the small ones, they got it all wrong. Here are my gripes:

1. Before even getting to the race, I already had a bad taste in my mouth. My friend who rides at Ringwood all the time looked at the course, and wondered why, with Ringwood being as big as it is, they would choose to run the course in a figure 8 layout. After the race, I heard many other riders familiar with Ringwood wonder the same thing.

A figure 8 like that makes it hard for the racers to keep track of where they need to turn, and makes it very easy for someone to cheat. They didn't even have an official at the A/B split checking plate numbers to catch cheaters.

This whole arrangement wreaks of laziness. They were either too lazy to figure out a better course, or too lazy to send people that far into the woods to do the necessary trail maintenance/marking a larger, non-8 course would require. Or too lazy to carry their folding tables, clipboards and pop-up tent to a further start area.

2. The trail map they posted on their web page. It was unreadable. It looked like a 3-year-old with a box of crayons drew it right before nap time. In this age of GPS, Google Maps and freely available topo maps online, there's simply no excuse. And if I recall correctly, it was posted sideways on the website.

3. When I got to the race, the registration area was inside a building, with no signs indicating it's location. You could walk all the way around the building a couple times and not know where the registration area was. The door didn't even face the outside of the building, due to the architectural design! All it takes to make some simple signs is a marker, some paper, and some tape. Heck, if you can't find a marker, you can use the same crayons you drew the course map with. You could even put the location of the registration on the directions to the race course.

4. The start area was ridiculous. It was too congested. To make it even harder for racers to get to the start, they decided to block access to the race course with an ambulance, leaving a walkway barely big enough to fit a biker and bike through single file. And it forced people to congregate RIGHT ON THE RACE COURSE, right at the finish, too, where people will want to hammer away to the finish. When the sport class started, so beginners finishing late couldn't even reach the finish line.

5. Speaking of the finish, it was really poor course design to have that turn so close the finish. Isn't there supposed to be a nice, straight sprint before the finish to allow for last minute sprints to the finish? And it was really dumb to have that last turn spill out into the crowds. Can I say enough on the stupidity of this layout? Probably not.

6. The trail could have been marked much better. The signs were easy to read, but some were placed to high, and most were placed so close to the turn you had little advanced notice. And at most races I've competed in, there's yellow caution tape or something similar strung across the trails a racer is NOT supposed to turn down. Nothing like that was done in this race. For the first time ever, I got lost on the race course, and this simple act would have prevented that. While signs are good, you can't expect a racer hammering down the trail to be looking UP in the trees for trail markings.

7. I heard about Jess being pulled off the course. I didn't read all the details, but if there was a time limit policy in effect, thats fine. AS LONG AS YOU STATE IT BEFORE THE RACE BEGINS!. They do that at the Dark Horse 40, and a few other long distances races I've done. They make it clear that if your first lap is too slow, you don't get to continue.

8. The results STILL have not been posted, 4 days after the race. They should have been posted within 24 hours of the race completion. Most other races do this. Why can't RVCC do it?

Now I saw one of the race organizers say we don't understand how hard it is to organize an event like this. That may be true, but we know what it's like to attend events like this, and this was the worst one I've ever attended. All the other race organizers do a better job, and I'm sure they have the same amount of responsibility and difficulties you do! Saying putting on a race is hard work is not an excuse. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Dark Horse Cycles puts on 3 races a year, and they all run smoothly. You put on one.

There. I'm done.


Biz
 
Instead of debating this point by point, I'm going to show you the error of your ways by taking the first sentence of your first post:

Biz said:
1. Before even getting to the race, I already had a bad taste in my mouth.
Click to expand...

Next time, I would suggest you stay home. If you're not enjoying yourself before you get to the race chances are you're going to find something to complain about once you do get there. This post reads as if your simply trying to find fault with everything about your experience there.

Nothing constructive comes out of your post. Is there some truth to it? Sure, of course. For instance, the start area was congested. Big whoop. It is what it is. Each of these 8 points could either be worded more tactfully or addressed with a simple question. Case in point, "Excuse me, where do I register?" Answer, "Right there in the building with the huge red X on it." Yes, it had a big red X on it. And yes, I asked, and answered, that very same question on Sunday.
 
Biz,

try to see things the other way around, go to a race to ride your bike, challenge yourself and have fun in the process. I've done Nationals, MASS, Masters of the Mountains, AMBC races etc., and the only thing that bums me out about Ringwood is that they've only been doing one race a year lately.

Now go ride your bike hard and enjoy it!

Maurice
 
Biz may have been a bit harsh, but he has some valid points that would be easily remedied for next year. I found the figure 8 to be easier navigated than I expected, and I really liked the course better than last year in this configuration. I agree there should always be a marshall to keep an eye on a juncture like that though. I also went to the start finish area before realizing that the reg was inside . I'm not sure how that could best be addressed, but it needs some thought. I think there were many of us that questioned the start/finish placement, for the three reasons that Biz stated. it is easy to fix by just moving things down the road 100 feet, but it would make a big difference. On a positive note, the trail work that was done right before the race was fantastic, and the rain made it even better.
 
If I remember correctly, last year there was also the case of a couple of the beginners riders getting "lost", since they were at the front of the pack, they missed the turn at the intersection and went for the sport loop instead of turning to the shorter beginner loop. :D That helped me!! ;) Perhaps the guy/gal that was supposed to be signaling riders at that intersection had to take a "bathroom" brake.
 
guava said:
Biz may have been a bit harsh, but he has some valid points that would be easily remedied for next year. I found the figure 8 to be easier navigated than I expected, and I really liked the course better than last year in this configuration. I agree there should always be a marshall to keep an eye on a juncture like that though. I also went to the start finish area before realizing that the reg was inside . I'm not sure how that could best be addressed, but it needs some thought. I think there were many of us that questioned the start/finish placement, for the three reasons that Biz stated. it is easy to fix by just moving things down the road 100 feet, but it would make a big difference. On a positive note, the trail work that was done right before the race was fantastic, and the rain made it even better.
Click to expand...

I'll address that point #1 then.

I thought the same thing at first. But to start the race, there were course marshals. If I had started the lap and immediately gone back to the start, the timers would have known I couldn't pull a 10 minute lap. The marshals sent people to the left for our class. I can only imagine it was the same for the beginner and expert classes as well.

So assuming you did the first lap right, it sets a baseline. After that, if I had pulled a 46 minute lap 1 and a 56 or 60 minute overall time, well that's a red flag. If I was so crafty that I went and hid in the weeds for 30 minutes then finished the race, well then what can you do? You can probably have this situation for any course. I'm sure a Blue Mountain local could easily have short-cut the course. If people are that determined to cheat, they're going to cheat. Their loss in the long run.

Some other points:

2. Most races don't even publish a map of the race.
3. Ask someone
5. Any race course is the same for anyone. I wasn't aware of any H2H Standard Race Course design
6. Personally I didn't notice any issues with the course. Markers have the advantage of not being ripped down like tape does. At Jungle Habitat some tape got ripped down and a big set of people got lost. No system is perfect.
7. You need to read the whole thread to get a better understanding on that.
8. Every race seems to take 3-5 days to post results. They were also available day of race.

On 4: I agree the start was crowded and it could have been up the road.

I don't think anyone is suggesting this (or any) race was perfect. But we can keep the comments/suggestions at least civil.
 
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Here's my point by point reply:

Biz said:
1. Before even getting to the race, I already had a bad taste in my mouth. My friend who rides at Ringwood all the time looked at the course, and wondered why, with Ringwood being as big as it is, they would choose to run the course in a figure 8 layout. After the race, I heard many other riders familiar with Ringwood wonder the same thing.

Eat a different breakfast: eat something that tastes good so it leaves a good taste. Don't listen to your friend - check it out for yourself.

A figure 8 like that makes it hard for the racers to keep track of where they need to turn, and makes it very easy for someone to cheat. They didn't even have an official at the A/B split checking plate numbers to catch cheaters.

It's not that difficult. Turn one way the first time, the other way the next time... As far as cheating...if you turn a 15 minute lap time either you are cheating or you're superman. The timers would catch that.

2. The trail map they posted on their web page. It was unreadable. It looked like a 3-year-old with a box of crayons drew it right before nap time. In this age of GPS, Google Maps and freely available topo maps online, there's simply no excuse. And if I recall correctly, it was posted sideways on the website.

It's not that bad of a map - turn your head sideways.

3. When I got to the race, the registration area was inside a building, with no signs indicating it's location. You could walk all the way around the building a couple times and not know where the registration area was. The door didn't even face the outside of the building, due to the architectural design! All it takes to make some simple signs is a marker, some paper, and some tape. Heck, if you can't find a marker, you can use the same crayons you drew the course map with. You could even put the location of the registration on the directions to the race course.

Ask someone.

4. The start area was ridiculous. It was too congested. To make it even harder for racers to get to the start, they decided to block access to the race course with an ambulance, leaving a walkway barely big enough to fit a biker and bike through single file. And it forced people to congregate RIGHT ON THE RACE COURSE, right at the finish, too, where people will want to hammer away to the finish. When the sport class started, so beginners finishing late couldn't even reach the finish line.

Agreed that it was congested. This is usally a problem anywhere.

5. Speaking of the finish, it was really poor course design to have that turn so close the finish. Isn't there supposed to be a nice, straight sprint before the finish to allow for last minute sprints to the finish? And it was really dumb to have that last turn spill out into the crowds. Can I say enough on the stupidity of this layout? Probably not.

This isn't most courses - it's Ringwood.

6. The trail could have been marked much better. The signs were easy to read, but some were placed to high, and most were placed so close to the turn you had little advanced notice. And at most races I've competed in, there's yellow caution tape or something similar strung across the trails a racer is NOT supposed to turn down. Nothing like that was done in this race. For the first time ever, I got lost on the race course, and this simple act would have prevented that. While signs are good, you can't expect a racer hammering down the trail to be looking UP in the trees for trail markings.

I agree only about 1 marking. The rest were fine.

7. I heard about Jess being pulled off the course. I didn't read all the details, but if there was a time limit policy in effect, thats fine. AS LONG AS YOU STATE IT BEFORE THE RACE BEGINS!. They do that at the Dark Horse 40, and a few other long distances races I've done. They make it clear that if your first lap is too slow, you don't get to continue.

Agreed.

8. The results STILL have not been posted, 4 days after the race. They should have been posted within 24 hours of the race completion. Most other races do this. Why can't RVCC do it?

Have you attended any other races without timing chips? Have you tabulated results? If it's not up after a week then I would start to get annoyed. It takes a long time to straighted this stuff out.

Now I saw one of the race organizers say we don't understand how hard it is to organize an event like this. That may be true, but we know what it's like to attend events like this, and this was the worst one I've ever attended. All the other race organizers do a better job, and I'm sure they have the same amount of responsibility and difficulties you do! Saying putting on a race is hard work is not an excuse. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Dark Horse Cycles puts on 3 races a year, and they all run smoothly. You put on one.

Help out a team/organization and see what goes into the whole setup and takedown of a race. Then evaluate the race again...

There. I'm done.

Me 2


Biz
Click to expand...
 
another anonymous complainer. I just love how people hide behind these screen names.

I don't have time to go point by point and heck I don't even usually get involved in stuff like this online but I do like Norm's, Maurice's and Ryan's replies to this post.

It doesn't sound like you have done too many races and you most definitely have not done Ringwood in the past as this is the way it has finished for years.

The debate on results has been around for some time and everyone has their own timeframe for completion of these as a promoter. Most of us do have day jobs. Its the end of the season anyway and you could have fouind out where you finished shortly after you finished. I know the sport results were up as soon as all riders were in from the course.
 
Help US

Hey Biz please help us out next year with are races in Ringwood, You can pick your task you would like to do we will post it on the web page so we all can rate your ability to run a Race. Also do you have any contacts for a camera system we can get for those sprint finish replay.
Thanks for your support
Willy
 
Help US

I couldn't agree w/ you more Willy! I know how much effort you and RVCC have put into this race. Thank you for all you have done not just for this year but also the prior years. Thank you again.:)
 
thanks to Art and Ellen and all the RVCC people also all the volunteers that helped put the race togheter, i know the many hours they put in to get the race course in good shape, since ringwood is one of the trail with alot of cycling trafic, the race course need it alot help
 
Thanx

Just wanted to say thank you to rvcc for one of the best races of the year for me. The course was awesome!! Cant wait for next year!;)
 
self-absorbed post

Finally got a couple shots of me. The guy doing this site is super cool. I asked and he found some shots of me riding. Cool.

The smaller shot was taken towards the end and you can see my lycra shorts ripped and my knee bleeding.
 
I've been avoiding replying to the comments about my posting, because I don't want to start a flame war. My posting was purely my thoughts, and was not in response or reaction to anyone else's posts. While my tone may have been a little bit caustic, that's a by-product of my sarcastic personality. I still think my criticisms are valid. Attacking me right back without addressing my complaints doesn't solve anything. I'm going to reply to a couple of other peoples comments about my post, and I'm going to do my best to control my sarcasm. Here are my replies, in no particular order:

  • I did my first NORBA race in April 1994, and have been racing off and on ever since.
  • I'm not hiding behind an online pseudonym any more than anyone else. How many people on here are posting with their full first and last names?
  • I don't blame the course markings for my getting lost. I did it on my second lap, so clearly they were good enough for me to find my way through the first lap. Getting lost comes with the territory, and it was bound to happen to me eventually. I just wish the race officials made it harder for me to get lost. I admit it, they weren't as awful as I made them out to be in my first e-mail, but they could have been better. This isn't the only race I could say that about. And yes, I know all about the mess @ Rumble in the Jungle.
  • It's not that hard to type up race results and post them online. I've done a bunch of races this season, and almost all of them had the results posted online within 48 hours. I waited around for several hours after my class finished, and the results still weren't posted on-site. I had somewhere to be that evening, and couldn't wait forever. I assumed I'd be able to get the results online a day later. And just for the record, I NEVER hound organizers during the race for results, b/c I know they're busy running the race.
  • There's a simple reason why I don't volunteer to organize races - I'm selfish. I'd rather use the time required to organize such an event to ride.
  • Using a finish line camera at a local mtb race is just silly, but if you really want one, I'm sure something adequate can easily be set up with a digital camera or video camera.
  • LIke I said earlier, I don't normally volunteer for stuff because I'm selfish, but I will man up, since I've been bitching so vociferously. I won't help organize the race, because I know] it's hard, but if you really want my help with next year's race, please PM me. I live in central jersey, and don't want to drive up to Ringwood every weekend preparing for the race, but would be willing to help out with the following support tasks, which I could do remotely: creating a race flyer for next years event in PDF format for advertising and downloading, creating a trail map for next year's course, posting the results online after the race.

I've actually been thinking about writing an open-source, database-driven application to automate/simplify time-keeping, sorting results, and posting results online. I don't have much experience programming complete applications like that, but if someone really wanted it, I'd be willing to give it a go. If I created anything useful, all of the H2H race organizers could use it. It would run on a laptop that could be kept at the start/finish area. As a racer came across the line, you'd just have to type in their plate #, and the software would take care of the time-keeping and sorting the results, and then convert them to an HTML table which could be pasted into a web page. If you really want accurate time keeping, a cheap USB GPS antenna could be used to get accurate time from the GPS system, and for redundancy/error-checking, two laptops could be used simultaneously. I can't (and won't) make any guarantees or promises on that, though - that would be bigger than any DB/application program I've ever done before, and IT'S JUST A THOUGHT! I'm already regretting suggesting it, but now it's out there now.

As hard as it is for you all to believe, I actually had a great time at the race on Sunday. I thought it was one of the best mixes of terrain out of any race I've done this year. I just think most of my gripes could have been fixed very easily, which probably why I'm so annoyed.

Biz
 
Nice pic.! I see Dave was on your tail. Question is was it before or after his additional 3 mile fire road ride!
 
Biz said:
I've actually been thinking about writing an open-source, database-driven application to automate/simplify time-keeping, sorting results, and posting results online. I don't have much experience programming complete applications like that, but if someone really wanted it, I'd be willing to give it a go. If I created anything useful, all of the H2H race organizers could use it. It would run on a laptop that could be kept at the start/finish area. As a racer came across the line, you'd just have to type in their plate #, and the software would take care of the time-keeping and sorting the results, and then convert them to an HTML table which could be pasted into a web page. Biz
Click to expand...

The Mid Atlantic Series appears to use Laptops at the finish of there races and it stream lines everything. Results are available quickly and accurately.

I would think using laptops would allow organizers to load Pre Registered racers before the event and add walk ups as they sign up. As racers finish have someone call out numbers and someone enter them on the laptop and let the computer give racers times and places. When an Organizer returns home everything is ready to post online.

Maybe I am over simplify this :confused:

This was my first year racing and I was very impressed with the commitment of all the organizers. These races can't be easy to pull off.
 
scalpel6 said:
Maybe I am over simplify this :confused:
Click to expand...

You are but not for the reasons you might think. The MASS series has corporate sponsors (Delmarva Jobs) who pay money to the series as a whole. This allows them to be able to afford a timing company that makes it all nice and streamlined. The enduros still have to use good old pencil & paper.

I'll say it again, Tymor nailed it. One PA announcer and 2 timekeepers and you're golden. Or 2 turntables and a microphone I guess.
 
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