Transgender cyclist wins women’s championship

[seanrunnette]

What I find interesting is that the above directly contradicts "doctor" McKinnon's "research".

She's a doctor. She cites research. No quotes necessary.
She's citing the same research the IAAF and Seb Coe are using in their argument for a testosterone-level ceiling for female athletes, and coming to a different conclusion. Not the first time that's happened. There are also questions about exogenous testosterone (aka doping) in the study group.

Did Mckinnon ever compete as a male?

No. (line 20)

 

[rick81721]

She's a doctor. She cites research. No quotes necessary.
She's citing the same research the IAAF and Seb Coe are using in their argument for a testosterone-level ceiling for female athletes, and coming to a different conclusion. Not the first time that's happened. There are also questions about exogenous testosterone (aka doping) in the study group.

Re: doctor, that's a pet peeve of mine. I'm sure I've posted here previously but I spent my entire career working with/for PhDs. Most of my bosses were PhDs, many colleagues were PhDs, some people reporting to me were PhDs. I never call PhDs "doctor", only medical doctors. Yeah, there were some kiss-asses that called our Senior VP "doctor", but I never did.

Anywho, to your second point, I don't see any physiology background in her resume, so I don't see how she is qualified to interpret such research and come to a different conclusion. This seems pretty conclusive to me: "Conclusion Female athletes with high fT levels have a significant competitive advantage over those with low fT in 400 m, 400 m hurdles, 800 m, hammer throw, and pole vault."

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/17/1309

 

[mattybfat]

I would love to know how the 2nd and 3rd place non transgender women really feel behind close doors. But you wont know. Those are the ones I would like to hear from. They busted there butts also to be top of their game.

The easy answer is to open a category for trans people, lord knows we could use more categories in H2H.

 

[Monkey Soup]

This whole thing is ridiculous. Is "Rachel" pre-op, post-op? Does it even matter? When the alien archaeologists come and dig up "her" bones 2000 yrs from now, they're going to find xy chromosomes, measure the hip and pelvis, and like Austin Powers say "its a man baby!" Frankly I'd be pissed if I were any of the other ladies racing, and that 6'1" dude dressed as a woman came and poached their race. Our society has gotten stupid. You want to change who you are, fine, have it, just don't expect anything from me. I'm not obligated to entertain you or give you any special treatment. And in sports, there definitely need to be rules around this type of thing, because you're either born a man or a woman (rare exceptions like Jamie Lee Curtis), with all the advantages that come with being either gender. You can get surgery and take all the hormones you want, but biologically you are what you are.

As a side note, your now opening the door to any creep out there to dress up like a man or woman and go into the public restroom with your son or daughter. I don;t think so.

 

[Patrick]

there are already laws against being a pedophile, they are not gender specific.

 

[roc]

Nothing to add, just hoping something gets said that sets someone off, I miss those acrimonious posts! I’m in a very boring meeting at work, help me out.

 

[Santapez]

1. be very careful when you get home...

We can disagree on things.

2.
are there differences in physiology? Sure,
But naturally better? I'd watch that.

Differences are:

biological/genetic/heredity
AND
environmental/social ?

Sex =/= Gender. The genetic determined sex will dominate the potential for outcome in sports. This is why there is a difference in classes for males & females. It's based on the sex, not gender. It's really impossible to say that being born a male isn't an EXTREME advantage. Find me a physical sport where women are better than men.

 

[rick81721]

This whole thing is ridiculous. Is "Rachel" pre-op, post-op? Does it even matter? When the alien archaeologists come and dig up "her" bones 2000 yrs from now, they're going to find xy chromosomes, measure the hip and pelvis, and like Austin Powers say "its a man baby!" Frankly I'd be pissed if I were any of the other ladies racing, and that 6'1" dude dressed as a woman came and poached their race. Our society has gotten stupid. You want to change who you are, fine, have it, just don't expect anything from me. I'm not obligated to entertain you or give you any special treatment. And in sports, there definitely need to be rules around this type of thing, because you're either born a man or a woman (rare exceptions like Jamie Lee Curtis), with all the advantages that come with being either gender. You can get surgery and take all the hormones you want, but biologically you are what you are.

As a side note, your now opening the door to any creep out there to dress up like a man or woman and go into the public restroom with your son or daughter. I don;t think so.

How dare you put "her" in quotes!

 

[MissJR]

i was discussing this off the forum with someone... and this is what i told them about this thread:

My issue here isn't that we have differing opinions. My issue isn't one of political correctness. My issue is that the only ones having a discussion on women and transgender and intersex athletes are men. There's a whole lot of voices that should be heard but aren't.

Now i have work to do.

 

[Monkey Soup]

there are already laws against being a pedophile, they are not gender specific.

Yes there are. There are also laws against rape, sexual assault, and murder, but does that stop anyone? Now you're just making it a little easier for every piece of shit pedophile to do what they do. Lets compromise though, once you get the surgery, then you're "official". That's a level of commitment that can't be argued. But if you still have the frank and beans, its the men's room for you. Vice versa if you still have your va-jay-jay.

 

[Monkey Soup]

We can disagree on things.



Sex =/= Gender. The genetic determined sex will dominate the potential for outcome in sports. This is why there is a difference in classes for males & females. It's based on the sex, not gender. It's really impossible to say that being born a male isn't an EXTREME advantage. Find me a physical sport where women are better than men.

If judged purely on times and speeds, yes, being male is an advantage in power or speed sports. However don't take this to mean that woman are weaker, because they aren't. I prefer to watch the women compete because on the whole, the women are mentally and physically tougher, they can endure more. They have a higher capacity to suffer and are more competitive than the men IMO. Just watch the women's track and field events, they are ruthless.

 

[Patrick]

We can disagree on things.



Sex =/= Gender. The genetic determined sex will dominate the potential for outcome in sports. This is why there is a difference in classes for males & females. It's based on the sex, not gender. It's really impossible to say that being born a male isn't an EXTREME advantage. Find me a physical sport where women are better than men.

was really bustin' on the first point...i'm sure this is the type of discussion which will be engaging.
-
my claim is that women have not been given the opportunity, nor the support that men have been given from a young age.
i suspect we will see women with equal watts/kg and whatever else is measurable in the near future.
This will lend itself to competing in endurance events. In absolute terms, we may not see a female baseball/football/basketball/hockey/soccer player
in the pro leagues for a long time. although i think soccer might be first.

naturally better - you mean physical potential? what if we never get a chance to see the best female athletes because
someone (society) kept steering them away?

what if the research that is done into optimal training isn't optimal for females? instant disadvantage.
I'm also not sure that society allows the performance curves to be compared without structural bias.

---

Hey @rick81721 if you have a second, vet this for actual research please. I don't have time to read it now, but a quick scan
has me interested.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Sport_Performance_Equity_Influences_Equality

---

this does get kinda off topic tho.

 

[mattybfat]

Just watch the women's track and field events, they are ruthless.

Or give birth!!!

 

[seanrunnette]

I would love to know how the 2nd and 3rd place non transgender women really feel behind close doors. But you wont know.

In this instance, econd place had no issue and has been publicly supportive. Third place, not so much.

How dare you put "her" in quotes!

I'm going to check out now. Not offended. Just no longer interested in where this is heading.

 

[Mtbdog]

Rules are rules. Rules were abided, I'm content with that.

 

[Paul H]

Question... if cycling is about power to weight ratio... how come there is no weight class?

 

[Patrick]

Question... if cycling is about power to weight ratio... how come there is no weight class?

at the local level, you'll see athena and clydesdale classes - esp in triathlon.

 

[roc]

at the local level, you'll see athena and clydesdale classes - esp in triathlon.

I am a Clydesdale, but for me, that just means I’m a little husky.

 

[Paul H]

at the local level, you'll see athena and clydesdale classes - esp in triathlon.

Just thinking having a weight class might blur the physical attributes a bit for it to be gender neutral?

 

[kdebello]

I wasn't going to comment on this subject as I'm not the best with words and don't want it to come out wrong. Basically, I'm just not sure. I would like to hear more from the women who are competing against transgender athletes, but I fear most are quiet because they would be criticized.

As a father of two girls who are multi-sport athletes, I've seen from day 1, how they are treated as a second thought and told that's the way it is. Court time late in the day because the boys get earlier choice. One crappy softball field that the parents have to maintain, while the boys get new dugouts and pristine fields. Being told to run one lap less than the boys in a kids mtb race.

These are different issues than transgender, but my girls are only 11 and 13, and they've seen time and time again that the boys get the advantage, or that they can't compete. I've always told them to fight for what they believe to get equal opportunities. When the story about the wrestler came out, I thought what if a person who had transitioned from male to female wanted to compete with my girls? After they've been told that boys are different and compete differently, and given the excuses that boys are stronger, faster, rougher. I would have hard time telling my girls that someone who was born as a male and wanted to now complete as a female, that if she's not breaking the rules and they just have to accept it.