Transgender cyclist wins women’s championship

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roc

Well-Known Member
I wasn't going to comment on this subject as I'm not the best with words and don't want it to come out wrong. Basically, I'm just not sure. I would like to hear more from the women who are competing against transgender athletes, but I fear most are quiet because they would be criticized.

As a father of two girls who are multi-sport athletes, I've seen from day 1, how they are treated as a second thought and told that's the way it is. Court time late in the day because the boys get earlier choice. One crappy softball field that the parents have to maintain, while the boys get new dugouts and pristine fields. Being told to run one lap less than the boys in a kids mtb race.

These are different issues than transgender, but my girls are only 11 and 13, and they've seen time and time again that the boys get the advantage, or that they can't compete. I've always told them to fight for what they believe to get equal opportunities. When the story about the wrestler came out, I thought what if a person who had transitioned from male to female wanted to compete with my girls? After they've been told that boys are different and compete differently, and given the excuses that boys are stronger, faster, rougher. I would have hard time telling my girls that someone who was born as a male and wanted to now complete as a female, that if she's not breaking the rules and they just have to accept it.
Have them play lacrosse, I have a son and daughter and I agree with everything you’ve said, he’s 13 she’s 11. As far as baseball/softball, it’s so true. In Motown the boys in baseball have better fields, but for lax, the girls program is so much more organized and well funded. Also for soccer, it’s a joke, the boys play at Central Park on awesome fields and the girls play on a 1/2 size field 7v7.
 

Monkey Soup

Angry Wanker
I wasn't going to comment on this subject as I'm not the best with words and don't want it to come out wrong. Basically, I'm just not sure. I would like to hear more from the women who are competing against transgender athletes, but I fear most are quiet because they would be criticized.

As a father of two girls who are multi-sport athletes, I've seen from day 1, how they are treated as a second thought and told that's the way it is. Court time late in the day because the boys get earlier choice. One crappy softball field that the parents have to maintain, while the boys get new dugouts and pristine fields. Being told to run one lap less than the boys in a kids mtb race.

These are different issues than transgender, but my girls are only 11 and 13, and they've seen time and time again that the boys get the advantage, or that they can't compete. I've always told them to fight for what they believe to get equal opportunities. When the story about the wrestler came out, I thought what if a person who had transitioned from male to female wanted to compete with my girls? After they've been told that boys are different and compete differently, and given the excuses that boys are stronger, faster, rougher. I would have hard time telling my girls that someone who was born as a male and wanted to now complete as a female, that if she's not breaking the rules and they just have to accept it.

Have your girls try track and field, there is more equality there. Actually, there is more equality within all the "olympic" sports. Sad fact is that the "ball" sports like football, basketball, baseball will always give priority to the boys because they are the dominant professional sports in this country, and all parents are harboring fantasies of their sons getting scholarships, becoming pros, and making millions. If you think this isn't true, go look at the shit that goes down between the parents at these events.

As far as fairness in the transition. A male puts on muscle mass and bone density differently than a woman, its biology. By the time someone reaches an age where they can "transform", this is a done deal. Now, a non-athlete can get surgery and take a ton of hormones to diminish this, but an athlete is going to keep training and retain much of that.
 

A Potted Plant

Honorary Sod
I've got no skin in the game I think the burden or gender is to low to be considered one gender or another in this matter. If testosterone is the only measurement being considered why bother checking the box male or female?

The body responsible for making this decision is wrong to be making this decision. I think the decision should fall on her competitors, what right does anyone else have to make this decision?

I think people are too considerate of other people to their own detriment, it's even worse when the decision you make has no direct effect on you. The ruling body saved their own bacon at no expense to themselves.
 

Juggernaut

Master of the Metaphor
Why not just let the transgender compete against other TG's in their own event.

As an academic exercise.... an all Transgender class has exactly the same issues as Trans/Non-Trans. Born XY -> XX vs born XX -> XY. Unless you’re planning on dividing that up to Assignment Female and Assignment Male classes. My head hurts.
 

Monkey Soup

Angry Wanker
I've got no skin in the game I think the burden or gender is to low to be considered one gender or another in this matter. If testosterone is the only measurement being considered why bother checking the box male or female?

The body responsible for making this decision is wrong to be making this decision. I think the decision should fall on her competitors, what right does anyone else have to make this decision?

I think people are too considerate of other people to their own detriment, it's even worse when the decision you make has no direct effect on you. The ruling body saved their own bacon at no expense to themselves.

If you look at this at a higher level it comes down to freedom. Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. That's what makes America great, do what you want, as long as it doesn't impede someone else's Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. Changing your gender is a CHOICE that you make. We're not amphibians, you're born a male or female, that's how higher life evolved on earth. Even if you undergo the transformation both physically and in how you identify yourself, your underlying biology is still one or the other. Should we be inclusive of people who make these choices? Yes. However, coming back to sport, insisting on competing with the gender that you now identify yourself, has an impact on your fellow competitors pursuit of happiness, which no one ever takes into account. You made a choice that's impacting other people, its not always all about you.
 

A Potted Plant

Honorary Sod
If you look at this at a higher level it comes down to freedom. Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. That's what makes America great, do what you want, as long as it doesn't impede someone else's Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. Changing your gender is a CHOICE that you make. We're not amphibians, you're born a male or female, that's how higher life evolved on earth. Even if you undergo the transformation both physically and in how you identify yourself, your underlying biology is still one or the other. Should we be inclusive of people who make these choices? Yes. However, coming back to sport, insisting on competing with the gender that you now identify yourself, has an impact on your fellow competitors pursuit of happiness, which no one ever takes into account. You made a choice that's impacting other people, its not always all about you.

This is why I'm saying leave the decision to competitors, they've got to compete with her. I understand she identifies as a female but identifying as one doesn't give you the advantages or disadvantages of being one.

But like I said before at the end of the day I don't think anything anyone says should matter unless your directly affected. Leave it to the competitors to decide
 

Chris(NJ)

Well-Known Member
This is why I'm saying leave the decision to competitors, they've got to compete with her. I understand she identifies as a female but identifying as one doesn't give you the advantages or disadvantages of being one.

But like I said before at the end of the day I don't think anything anyone says should matter unless your directly affected. Leave it to the competitors to decide

The problem is that they can't. I guarantee you whoever got 2nd and 3rd in that race is pissed, but they can't say it publicly because they'll be labeled bigots...just like that trans person said about everyone else who apparently commented on it.
Furthermore, if they do comment, their sponsors will say it's not in line with their values and the sponsors will drop them.
 

pixychick

JORBA: Ringwood
JORBA.ORG
Nothing to add, just hoping something gets said that sets someone off, I miss those acrimonious posts! I’m in a very boring meeting at work, help me out.
Well, perhaps this is somehow related to winter shoes? It could be the longest thread.
 

rick81721

Lothar
As an academic exercise.... an all Transgender class has exactly the same issues as Trans/Non-Trans. Born XY -> XX vs born XX -> XY. Unless you’re planning on dividing that up to Assignment Female and Assignment Male classes. My head hurts.

XXY - male or female? Discuss!
 

A Potted Plant

Honorary Sod
The problem is that they can't. I guarantee you whoever got 2nd and 3rd in that race is pissed, but they can't say it publicly because they'll be labeled bigots...just like that trans person said about everyone else who apparently commented on it.
Furthermore, if they do comment, their sponsors will say it's not in line with their values and the sponsors will drop them.

There are ways to do this without villainizing individuals you can hold an anonymous vote. Sure you'll know the results but you won't know which way the ladies went. Second place is just saying what she needs to well never know if that's what she wants to say. Regardless of how they would vote it wouldn't change how that individual identifies

I identify as American, growing up people said I was Hispanic, when I'm in Colombia they say I'm American. People will say what they want about you but at the end of the day you are who ever you say you are.
 

rick81721

Lothar
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Hey @rick81721 if you have a second, vet this for actual research please. I don't have time to read it now, but a quick scan
has me interested.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Sport_Performance_Equity_Influences_Equality

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this does get kinda off topic tho.

It's a review/commentary article on sociological influences to the gender gap in sports performance. Suggests the gap will close in some sports but male superiority will be maintained. One nugget I found interesting was that female world records for 100 - 800 M running events were set in the 1980s and have not been broken since. Makes me wonder if these were set by Russian or East Germans doping.
 

rick81721

Lothar
I identify as American, growing up people said I was Hispanic, when I'm in Colombia they say I'm American. People will say what they want about you but at the end of the day you are who ever you say you are.

Identifying yourself as whatever in regular life is one thing, identifying yourself in sports competition is something else. I identify myself as King of Earth but sadly, no one else agrees!
 

rick81721

Lothar
It's a review/commentary article on sociological influences to the gender gap in sports performance. Suggests the gap will close in some sports but male superiority will be maintained. One nugget I found interesting was that female world records for 100 - 800 M running events were set in the 1980s and have not been broken since. Makes me wonder if these were set by Russian or East Germans doping.

800M women's world record holder. Hmm...

https://slate.com/culture/2011/08/the-women-s-track-and-field-record-book-needs-to-be-expunged.html
 

Monkey Soup

Angry Wanker

The best part of the article is Martina Navratilova criticizing Kratochvilova. Hello pot, kettle here.....

Notice the women’s records stand to the shorter, power distances where muscle is more important than endurance. The simple reality is thst today it’s harder for a woman to dope than a man because it’s way more obvious, and makes you an immediate target for doping control.

The 800 is a particularly brutal event in track and field, it straddles the line between endurance and power, it takes a certain kind of nut-case to excel in that event. I think that once women routinely race with a pacer leading them out like all the top men do, that record will fall.
 

mattybfat

The Opinion Police
Team MTBNJ Halter's
In this instance, econd place had no issue and has been publicly supportive. Third place, not so much
Get in a real talk room with second place and I bet you hear a whole different scenario. Competitive women can be just as bad as men but they are just better at hiding it. I have always been impressed how women are so super supportive of their competitors yet when you bring them home they have that slayer edge to them. Hence why I wonder how supportive 2nd place really is.
 
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