Yellow trail at the "pile of logs" closed off
- Thread starter jumpa
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i thought the same thing you posit here - "is the trail officially closed?" - did this just move the timeline up a bit?
this is a reasonable question.
doesn't really server the trail builders' agenda, because now they need to deal with traffic while working.
Pretty sure the plan was to close the old trail this fall. Someone just jumped the gun. You can't make a re-route and then not close the old trail, because then it's not a re-route. As someone mentioned earlier, it's a lot easier to get permission to create a re-route versus a new trail. There's lots of politics involved in creating new trails legitimately.
GJ11
Member
There was nothing wrong with the original trail. Some have made claims as to why it should be closed but nothing indicated this trail stood out amongst the many other rooty-rocky-washed out trails in LM and needed to be closed.
Yes, both should be open. Nothing in the JORBA mission talks about turning off cyclists, shutting down trails, etc. If you want to ride the new trail, great, ride it. If you want to ride the old one, have at it. Why is one trail exclusive of the other?
GJ11
Member
Thanks for chiming in here Jim. What 'plan' was this based on? JORBA's? Morris Co Parks? Others indicated it was closed w/o JORBA or Morris Co input. What fact can you share?
Thanks
Not sure, I'm just a day laborer. I assume that jorba proposed re-routing that section of trail and morris County parks approved of the idea. I think the plan was to close the old section, but not until the fall. It sounds like someone went ahead and closed it early. Come on out to the next trail maintenance and I'm sure you can get all the answers you want 🙂
GJ11
Member
The JORBA rep for LM is on this board and should be able to provide answers. Best I can tell, there are no legitimate answers. So when I go into LM and open up the old trail with my buddies, I get a little jaded when I go back in the following week and someone, without authorization, has closed it back up again.
Would it be any different if my buds and I started throwing logs on the new trail? We have no authority to do it, but we want everyone to ride our trail, and the county really doesn't care one way or the other, so it would go down as a rouge group of guys closing legitimate trails. Then to add insult to injury, on this board, we have guys defending the actions of the rouge few. How great is that?
To beat a dead horse, I'm pretty sure someone on this web board would chime in asking for answers. And for the record, Jason, the only quasi-authority on this board, has provided nothing other than his preference, or his support for the preference, of a few guys to close down a legitimate trail. And of course at the end of his posts he has the stones to ask me to come out for a JORBA trail maintenance day where, based on his comments heretofore, I can expect to help close some other legitimate trails to further someone else's agenda. Really?
Not sure if you are referring to me, but I have no authority. I just went to one trail maintenance at Lewis morris a few weeks ago and dug for a few hours.
I have no affiliation with Morris County Parks and simply volunteer time at Lewis Morris Park and am only offering my perspective. The trail in question is a fall line trail and this is fact. I have offered to go out with you and show you how to determine the maximum sustainable grade and determine the actual trail grade. The trail in question has zero grade reversals and in heavy rain turns into a running stream. The county is in agreement with this and at one point listened to and approve a plan to remediate this section. The plan called for a reroute and the eventual closure of the old fall line trail. As I mentioned numerous times, goto the meetings, read the meeting notes, contact the county engineer who testified before the board regarding the erosion, attend a meeting and testify yourself. Infinite opportunities to become an informed trail user!
If you go out and conduct trail work in the county parks, you do so at your own risk. If you get caught, maybe you get a ticket, maybe nothing. It's pretty simple, the county wanted to deal with an impacted section, JORBA put a plan together to reroute, the county approved the plan and you didn't attend any of the meetings. Someone else closed down a trail that was to be properly closed in a few months per the plan approved by the county.
So get involved, don't get involved, keep posting to a mountain bike website, whatever makes you happy.
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I would suggest you head to the JORBA website. As far as I know mtbNJ.com has no official affiliation with JORBA. Some of the officers do hang out here. If they happen to see your post, they may respond.
@GJ11 , as someone who has ridden Lew Mo for 25 years and involved in and/or led trail building and maintenance there for 20, I can clarify the situation. The new trail, just like most any new section in Morris County's park system, requires a proposal which then has to be approved by the Trails Foreman and the MCPC's Naturalist. I submitted the proposal for the new trail in the spring of 2015, secured approval in summer and we got started cutting it in shortly thereafter. Among the conditions for opening the new trail was that it is to replace the adjacent eroded, fall line trail (the section that is now closed off).
As @jumpa , @Jason, @fidodie and others have stated, the trail is unsustainable (as are, frankly, a few other sections of trail in the park...we hope to get to these in due course, but as you can appreciate this is all volunteer, hand tool wielding, back breaking labor....so we do what we can, when we can. ) Same is true at every other park that JORBA volunteers maintain. Six Mile, Ringwood, Allaire, you name it...there are sections that evolve over time to be unsustainable, and the hard working crews dedicate a portion of their time to remediating them, up to and including closure of some sections.
I distinctly remember when that now closed section was first cut (around 2006 ish). I was not on the crew much that year due to family obligations, but I was dismayed to see how it went straight down the fall line, off camber with no reverse grades to slow water's acceleration down the trail during heavy rain and/or snow melt. It was fresh dirt back then and, sure enough, now it is mess of loose crumbly rocks and very exposed root systems. The skidding that takes place as riders inevitably navigate the steep off camber section and the hard turn at the bottom (i've seen more than my fair share of skid marks) only contribute more to the erosion. If you have access to IMBA's Trail Solutions book, check it out...it explains the science behind proper trail building and we try to follow this wherever possible. In fact, we have had the IMBA Trail Care Crew at Lewis Morris twice in the past 10 years. Their input has been invaluable.
Other areas that are poor examples of trail are:
a) the northwestern section of Yellow, just after the small bridge...that started out in 2002 as a hand cut singletrack bench trail, nice and narrow and then was bulldozed into a fire road for reasons I won't go into here. I've been trying to come up with ways to make it more fun instead of being the highway that it is now, but have for now decided to focus on sections with more of a canvas to work with. That section has limited options so it may remain in a crappy state for a while.
b) the eastern most section of Orange, as it heads down to the other small bridge where it intersects with Green. Again, it was once very narrow but has no reverse grade and now is wide and rooty at the top, and eroded as you head down toward Green. It's a tough spot to put in any new trails since the beech trees in the area are thick as thieves and they are all shallow rooted. More thought needed on that, so that too will remain until we can come up with an alternative.
c) some sections of Teal. More options here based on the terrain, but a good chuck of the northern stretch of that trail is straight down fall line and full of loose chunky rock.
Once we've put the finishing touches on the new section (needs a berm or two and some benching), I'm working on proposals for other new sections elsewhere. One will be new (where no trail exists today) and another will be a reroute of some existing trails. Wish me luck....approval is not a guarantee.
There isn't enough time or space to go into the long history of trail access at Lew Mo (if you'd like to, let's meet in Morristown for a beer!), but suffice it to say that on one hand, MCPC is very supportive of our volunteer efforts but, on the other, are understandably upset when park users build rogue trails and/or "unclose" trails that were meant to be returned to the forest. One example of both of these is a downhill section that starts mid-way along Orange and heads straight downhill to the lake. This was a trail that was closed when Orange was built as part of the 2002-2004 master plan. Now, someone (likely several people) have removed the large logs that were used to close the trail down, and constructed (out of those same logs) a jump halfway down the trail. If this trail was at Mountain Creek, the jump might be acceptable. But at a County Park that hosts multiple users, particularly near the lake where there are cookouts with lots of kids that like to explore the area, it is not. As a result, we will be re-closing this trail.
These rogue efforts (combined with several that have sprung up in the past at other County parks like Tourne and Mahlon Dickerson) undo years of goodwill and trust that volunteers have worked hard to achieve. These rogue efforts also cause us to shift focus (time/effort) to undoing the rogue work when we could instead be building new sections or repairing muddy/eroded areas.
While the old trail you have inquired about was closed in advance of when we had planned to (scheduled for the fall, when the leaf cover gives us an "assist"), I ask that you keep it closed (we will do a more official job of it in the fall...the current barricade - while effective - is a bit unsightly).
Let me know if you'd like to talk further about this. It would be a lot faster to do so via phone, so if you'd like to get in touch, PM me your number and let's get in touch. Also, next trail date is scheduled for June 18 if you'd like to join us. I'll be posting up the details shortly.
As @jumpa , @Jason, @fidodie and others have stated, the trail is unsustainable (as are, frankly, a few other sections of trail in the park...we hope to get to these in due course, but as you can appreciate this is all volunteer, hand tool wielding, back breaking labor....so we do what we can, when we can. ) Same is true at every other park that JORBA volunteers maintain. Six Mile, Ringwood, Allaire, you name it...there are sections that evolve over time to be unsustainable, and the hard working crews dedicate a portion of their time to remediating them, up to and including closure of some sections.
I distinctly remember when that now closed section was first cut (around 2006 ish). I was not on the crew much that year due to family obligations, but I was dismayed to see how it went straight down the fall line, off camber with no reverse grades to slow water's acceleration down the trail during heavy rain and/or snow melt. It was fresh dirt back then and, sure enough, now it is mess of loose crumbly rocks and very exposed root systems. The skidding that takes place as riders inevitably navigate the steep off camber section and the hard turn at the bottom (i've seen more than my fair share of skid marks) only contribute more to the erosion. If you have access to IMBA's Trail Solutions book, check it out...it explains the science behind proper trail building and we try to follow this wherever possible. In fact, we have had the IMBA Trail Care Crew at Lewis Morris twice in the past 10 years. Their input has been invaluable.
Other areas that are poor examples of trail are:
a) the northwestern section of Yellow, just after the small bridge...that started out in 2002 as a hand cut singletrack bench trail, nice and narrow and then was bulldozed into a fire road for reasons I won't go into here. I've been trying to come up with ways to make it more fun instead of being the highway that it is now, but have for now decided to focus on sections with more of a canvas to work with. That section has limited options so it may remain in a crappy state for a while.
b) the eastern most section of Orange, as it heads down to the other small bridge where it intersects with Green. Again, it was once very narrow but has no reverse grade and now is wide and rooty at the top, and eroded as you head down toward Green. It's a tough spot to put in any new trails since the beech trees in the area are thick as thieves and they are all shallow rooted. More thought needed on that, so that too will remain until we can come up with an alternative.
c) some sections of Teal. More options here based on the terrain, but a good chuck of the northern stretch of that trail is straight down fall line and full of loose chunky rock.
Once we've put the finishing touches on the new section (needs a berm or two and some benching), I'm working on proposals for other new sections elsewhere. One will be new (where no trail exists today) and another will be a reroute of some existing trails. Wish me luck....approval is not a guarantee.
There isn't enough time or space to go into the long history of trail access at Lew Mo (if you'd like to, let's meet in Morristown for a beer!), but suffice it to say that on one hand, MCPC is very supportive of our volunteer efforts but, on the other, are understandably upset when park users build rogue trails and/or "unclose" trails that were meant to be returned to the forest. One example of both of these is a downhill section that starts mid-way along Orange and heads straight downhill to the lake. This was a trail that was closed when Orange was built as part of the 2002-2004 master plan. Now, someone (likely several people) have removed the large logs that were used to close the trail down, and constructed (out of those same logs) a jump halfway down the trail. If this trail was at Mountain Creek, the jump might be acceptable. But at a County Park that hosts multiple users, particularly near the lake where there are cookouts with lots of kids that like to explore the area, it is not. As a result, we will be re-closing this trail.
These rogue efforts (combined with several that have sprung up in the past at other County parks like Tourne and Mahlon Dickerson) undo years of goodwill and trust that volunteers have worked hard to achieve. These rogue efforts also cause us to shift focus (time/effort) to undoing the rogue work when we could instead be building new sections or repairing muddy/eroded areas.
While the old trail you have inquired about was closed in advance of when we had planned to (scheduled for the fall, when the leaf cover gives us an "assist"), I ask that you keep it closed (we will do a more official job of it in the fall...the current barricade - while effective - is a bit unsightly).
Let me know if you'd like to talk further about this. It would be a lot faster to do so via phone, so if you'd like to get in touch, PM me your number and let's get in touch. Also, next trail date is scheduled for June 18 if you'd like to join us. I'll be posting up the details shortly.
By the way, this is not absurd. The MCPC has faced at least two lawsuits in the past, one of which was from a mountain biker that sued the park because he fell down on "an uneven stretch of trail" and broke his ankle. He sued for damages relating to everything from inability to work to (I'm not making this up) "inability to perform marital duties". The MCPC eventually prevailed when the judge threw out the case, but it dragged through the courts for 2 years and cost the MCPC a fair amount to defend itself. This is one of the reasons you will find no trail features at Morris County Parks and why if illegal features are built they are soon dismantled. I love super tech and challenging stuff like the rest of us, but I go elsewhere to get that fix.
Like I said, I have at least 2 decades of history working with MCPC and have been through the good and the bad. Not going to going into it all here at the risk of putting everyone to sleep or overloading the MTBNJ servers, but trust me when I say the key to continued access in Morris County Parks is to play (ride) by the rules.
jumpa
Well-Known Member
ive been working to get into the top 5 for a loop segmant all of last summer, come back this season to find out every fallen tree addes a second or two to my time, ill never get the time now 🙁
jumpa
Well-Known Member
I feel the offical JORBA TM dates are to far in between. But if you already have a a group of buddies willing to dig up dirt im usually alone digging on the new trail once or twice a week for a few hours and can get access to the paper work to make your efforts legitimized, then you can say the the trail is actually "yours" and i'm less lonely riding and digging by myself 🙂.
I understand your frustrations though, when I went out with the trail crew last year to help dig out the start of the new section just to find out the old one would be closed it kinda sucked. "why cant we just have MORE trails instead of an alternative trail?". Ive know all about sustainable grades, grade reversals , water erosion, trail sustainability for multi use groups, and all that good stuff and try to apply it in practice but something inside me still doesn't like giving up segments of trail that I've ridden for years. You could then imagine my face when i noticed the that segment closed way ahead of time even before the new segment was polished out.
That particular portion of trail that just got closed did require skill to hammer down without dragging your tire and leaving skid marks down it. I enjoyed trying to be fast down that segment. I've also witness multiple people drag tire down it, with a steady flow of rocks and lose soil following their bikes down the hill. At the end of the day though, that section would be closed, it sucked that i didn't get to ride down it one more time before someone closed it. But i saw it as giving up a few seconds of trail to have access to a segment that would add more mileage and minutes to my ride. We as mountain bikers are the minority, we play by "their" rules. We are also the easiest user group of trail users to get banned. I figured since we already have the shit end of the stick we might as well be the ones cutting and building the new trails to make them fun for us and everyone else. A bunch of riders obviously didn't cut the old segment that got closed anyway, what kind of mountain biker would cut a trail straight down a mountain with just one turn, psshhh. Im with ya man, i wish all the trails could stay open. So, if you would like, we could be proactive about it and make the new trail (and all the new trails from now on) a shit load more fun than the old ones. don't like something about it? flow sucks? lets talk, then fix it. We can talk shit while we move earth, then we can chase PR's on new trails!
I don't have the experience that the JORBA folks posting up do with dealing with the red tape and talking to the authorities of the park or digging and cutting trail. I'm working on that. I'm just another rider like you that realized one day no one ever does any trail work in this park. I wanted to be part of that crew that moves the dirt and forms the trails. I wanted to let other trail users see us out there with hand tools packing down dirt with bike beside us and realizing that the mountain bikers put a lot of effort into the trail for everyone. Ive talked to dozens of hikers and riders withing just the few weeks while digging that didn't even realize that mountain bikers cut the new trail all on volunteer time. And trust me, I make it known. It felt good to hear a group of hikers talk about the new segment and talk about the mnt bikers who cut it in a good light. If we have to close 10 seconds of a so-so trail in the long run, it doesn't seem so bad. If you see an asian kid on a green kona honzo or a black devinci troy, yell whats up! happy riding !
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GJ11
Member
So it's unfortunate it took nearly 2 pages of blathering to get to this, which finally answers the question in my original post (#7). Thanks for taking the time to answer. Could you point me to the material you submitted in your proposal along with any supporting documentation the Foreman or Naturalist may have submitted? You said "spring of 2015" so I skimmed through the MCPC minutes from Jan-June 2015 and didn't see anything related. Also, do you know who imposed the conditions on the new trail?
In case it wasn't clear, I have tremendous respect for the volunteers. Other posts in this thread have indicated the closure was uncoordinated or perhaps done without approval. Clearly that's not the case.
So you're essentially saying where there's room to close/re-route trails that meet the description above, you intend to do so?
Unfortunately (Fortunately??) it's father's day weekend and I already have plans. Generally speaking, and I'm probably not alone here, weekends that don't intersect holidays afford me more flexibility.
Thanks again for your response.
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GJ11
Member
It is only because everybody sues everybody in America. When someone quotes 'insurance' or 'lawsuits' as an answer to a question, they might as well say nothing. We're one of the most litigious societies in the world, maybe the most litigious. MCPC will either deal with the increase in litigation costs or start closing off the parks. However, we're veering into a discussion about tort reform and not mountain bikes, so I'll leave it at that.
Arwen's Mom
Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains
personally, I wasnt going to respond to this thread until I read this:
quoting @GJ11 "I'd be happy to do that but to what end? If sections of trail are going to be opened and closed without any input, or worse yet, with a wink and a nod, then what purpose do these sessions serve other than to further an agenda which is not in the best interest of the group?"
Are you for real?
Best interest of what group?
Cross country riders?
downhillers?
hikers?
Horses?
Grandmas and Grandpas with 5 yr old kids?
Dont like how the trails are being taken care of? go ride somewhere else!
You should be THANKFUL there are ANY trails at all without nitpicking and nagging over 100 foot of trail. I just dont get you people who complain over small sections of trail without being super thankful about all the other miles and miles that people build without being paid or thanked for it, all they hear are complaints.
Miss a gnarly downhill? go ride Platty for your downhill fix.
Personally I am thankful for all the work done on NJ trails.
JORBA rock on!
quoting @GJ11 "I'd be happy to do that but to what end? If sections of trail are going to be opened and closed without any input, or worse yet, with a wink and a nod, then what purpose do these sessions serve other than to further an agenda which is not in the best interest of the group?"
Are you for real?
Best interest of what group?
Cross country riders?
downhillers?
hikers?
Horses?
Grandmas and Grandpas with 5 yr old kids?
Dont like how the trails are being taken care of? go ride somewhere else!
You should be THANKFUL there are ANY trails at all without nitpicking and nagging over 100 foot of trail. I just dont get you people who complain over small sections of trail without being super thankful about all the other miles and miles that people build without being paid or thanked for it, all they hear are complaints.
Miss a gnarly downhill? go ride Platty for your downhill fix.
Personally I am thankful for all the work done on NJ trails.
JORBA rock on!
@GJ11
I am going to disagree with your assessment that the trail was ok/good/fine. Was it the worst trail I have ever been on? No, not really. But I think you are being disingenuous to say it was fine. My thoughts:
1. As someone who has ridden this trail for 10-ish years on & off, there is pretty much a 100% correlation with going downhill and locking the brakes up. I would imagine that 49 out of 50 people would agree with that, and you would be the dissenting vote in that survey (ok maybe 48 as you'd make your wife vote too). Now, ignoring my fabricated stats, if indeed most people lock up the brakes on the downhill, does that indicate good trail design? Be honest in answering that. And I will cut you off at the pass right now. You will lose points on your paper if you say I am a poorly skilled rider.
2. This trail has washed out how many times? I can remember at least 2 different projects on this trail to make it better. But at this point the thing is double-wide. You can drive a jeep up it. For sure you need at least some grade reversals to keep it from needing constant attention. I mean go out there and take a pic of it, the worst spots. I don't think you can say it hasn't gotten worse/wider/looser. Maybe the trail could have stayed where it was, just maybe extended out with a bunch of grade reversals to allow for better drainage. Or maybe not, IDK what the lay of the land is. Maybe this is just what needed to happen there.
3. It sucks to climb.
So having said all of the above, I will say this. It was fun to bomb downhill. And I enjoyed it every time I did and locked the brakes up going into that turn. I suspect that this is really all you are saying: that you liked to bomb down this and it sucks that you won't be able to anymore. I can appreciate that. And I respect that you have more or less kept this discussion civil. However, the demanding justice and a scientific justification for what amounts to a subjective assessment of point #3 above is a bit much.
I am not going to tell you that you should go to meetings, or write up proposals, or write your congressman, or any of that. I have been where you are before. And I know when people say that, it sounds kinda like nonsense. I also know that the MCPC is a tough nut to work with, and the guys deal with a lot of frustration on that end. On that note, I would ask that you consider that when voicing your objections. I am not saying not to. Just saying that these guys are in a tough spot. MCPC is tough to work with. Then some elements of the bike community are hard to work with.
At the end of the day, I think you need to see trail building like a free meal. You're cooking it? Well then hell yes I'm thankful.
I am going to disagree with your assessment that the trail was ok/good/fine. Was it the worst trail I have ever been on? No, not really. But I think you are being disingenuous to say it was fine. My thoughts:
1. As someone who has ridden this trail for 10-ish years on & off, there is pretty much a 100% correlation with going downhill and locking the brakes up. I would imagine that 49 out of 50 people would agree with that, and you would be the dissenting vote in that survey (ok maybe 48 as you'd make your wife vote too). Now, ignoring my fabricated stats, if indeed most people lock up the brakes on the downhill, does that indicate good trail design? Be honest in answering that. And I will cut you off at the pass right now. You will lose points on your paper if you say I am a poorly skilled rider.
2. This trail has washed out how many times? I can remember at least 2 different projects on this trail to make it better. But at this point the thing is double-wide. You can drive a jeep up it. For sure you need at least some grade reversals to keep it from needing constant attention. I mean go out there and take a pic of it, the worst spots. I don't think you can say it hasn't gotten worse/wider/looser. Maybe the trail could have stayed where it was, just maybe extended out with a bunch of grade reversals to allow for better drainage. Or maybe not, IDK what the lay of the land is. Maybe this is just what needed to happen there.
3. It sucks to climb.
So having said all of the above, I will say this. It was fun to bomb downhill. And I enjoyed it every time I did and locked the brakes up going into that turn. I suspect that this is really all you are saying: that you liked to bomb down this and it sucks that you won't be able to anymore. I can appreciate that. And I respect that you have more or less kept this discussion civil. However, the demanding justice and a scientific justification for what amounts to a subjective assessment of point #3 above is a bit much.
I am not going to tell you that you should go to meetings, or write up proposals, or write your congressman, or any of that. I have been where you are before. And I know when people say that, it sounds kinda like nonsense. I also know that the MCPC is a tough nut to work with, and the guys deal with a lot of frustration on that end. On that note, I would ask that you consider that when voicing your objections. I am not saying not to. Just saying that these guys are in a tough spot. MCPC is tough to work with. Then some elements of the bike community are hard to work with.
At the end of the day, I think you need to see trail building like a free meal. You're cooking it? Well then hell yes I'm thankful.
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