Winter Trail Abuse.

jShort

2018 Fantasy Football Toilet Bowl Lead Technician
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Imagine caution tape across those two wooden fences.

IMG_4471.JPG




OK. I'll stop beating the dead horse.
 

MissJR

not in the mood for your shenanigans
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Couple of questions:

Who owns the land (state/county/town)? If tape or a chain across the trail head (not parking lot) says trail closed and people still go on the trail, is it then trespassing? Can fines be handed out then? Do other closed trail systems (like Nox or Nassau) do anything to people who still ride when trails are closed?

If anyone's taking a vote, I'm a fan of simple chain with sign that says trail closed. In six mile case, just make it half the year and periodically when there's been a ton of rain. Get word out on Facebook. Periodically have people at the trails taking photos of people and cars who are riding during closed season. Mostly, just to scare them into thinking they're being reported. Maybe shame repeat offenders.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
6MR is a somerset county park. Part of the D&R. thanks Frank.
yes, people still go to nox/nassau when it is closed. and again, "we" use judgement when it is closed
to say it is now frozen, and can handle it, and go around the tape. i did it a couple weeks ago. it had
been teens/low 20s for a couple days, so took the short way between the lots.

they are not going to blanket-close the trails. it isn't happening.
i could easily hike 1 foot to the right of the trail through the field, and you wouldn't know i was there.
the hunters walk in from jaques on the nica/grass trails - stuff that can handle their use.
Black trail off rt 27 stays relatively dry.
Also, without enforcement, it won't matter.

how about a vinyl banner on that fence, and in the other lots that explicitly says something like

"Don't ride if there is mud. You are destroying the trail system, and jeopardizing legal access"
for more info.....:QRcode: :URL:

I'll put up one of those fake cameras.

i know this leaves judgement, and i'd rather just say ' no riding today' - but without digital signage, it isn't going to happen on a daily basis,
at the right time.
 
Last edited:

MadisonDan

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Regarding the issue of open/closed signs or tape at 6MR and man power.
In most cases, I’d think it would be open for several days, then closed for a few after rain. Or open during deep freeze, then closed for a week or so during/after that. It’s not like every morning and every night someone needs to be there. It kinda goes in cycles that last several days. If once in a while it’s off by a few hours because someone can’t get there until noon instead of 8am or whatever, so be it. It does need to be clearly communicated in a central location, like Nox does on FB. Will people ignore it? Yes, some. Will we miss some good hours because it “opened late” or “closed early”, yeah, prolly. Could this cut down on A LOT of jackholes riding in the mud? I think so. All that said, I’m 45 minutes away, so it’d be on someone else.

my opinion
 

RobW

Well-Known Member
6MR is a somerset county park.
yes, people still go to nox/nassau when it is closed. and again, "we" use judgement when it is closed
to say it is now frozen, and can handle it, and go around the tape. i did it a couple weeks ago. it had
been teens/low 20s for a couple days, so took the short way between the lots.

they are not going to blanket-close the trails. it isn't happening.
i could easily hike 1 foot to the right of the trail through the field, and you wouldn't know i was there.
the hunters walk in from jaques on the nica/grass trails - stuff that can handle their use.
Black trail off rt 27 stays relatively dry.
Also, without enforcement, it won't matter.

how about a vinyl banner on that fence, and in the other lots that explicitly says something like

"Don't ride if there is mud. You are destroying the trail system, and jeopardizing legal access"
for more info.....:QRcode: :URL:

I'll put up one of those fake cameras.

i know this leaves judgement, and i'd rather just say ' no riding today' - but without digital signage, it isn't going to happen on a daily basis,
at the right time.
I like the banner idea, But with jorba members present to hold it and educate the people. Shaming them won’t work—- jorba should fund a banner, volunteers should come and post up at the trail entrances on days it’s not suitable for riding. Hell, this should be done even on nice days because the ratio of people riding during nice days is higher than bad days. We can’t take the easyway out and just hang a sign. You want people to relate to you in ways that they hear what you need to say instead of a sign.... because like NOX... what is a sign!?!?
 

Frank

Sasquatch
Couple of questions:

Who owns the land (state/county/town)? If tape or a chain across the trail head (not parking lot) says trail closed and people still go on the trail, is it then trespassing? Can fines be handed out then? Do other closed trail systems (like Nox or Nassau) do anything to people who still ride when trails are closed?

If anyone's taking a vote, I'm a fan of simple chain with sign that says trail closed. In six mile case, just make it half the year and periodically when there's been a ton of rain. Get word out on Facebook. Periodically have people at the trails taking photos of people and cars who are riding during closed season. Mostly, just to scare them into thinking they're being reported. Maybe shame repeat offenders.

NJ State park


Remember how effective closure was during the Government shutdown? People drove through the tape to get into parking lots.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Caution tape would work to cut out some percentage of people. Just use the same system Nassau is using. Maybe 5 times a year, you work with the land manager to agree to put up caution tape and some trail closed signs.

Ok so then you stop, let's say, 33% of the users. Those 33% now know not to even bother anymore. So not only have you cut out 1/3 of the people, you have cut the number of cars in the lot. Eventually those people will say to their friends, "Ah forget Six Mile let's go to X because they put the tape up." 33% slowly becomes 50%.

If I told you today that at age 40, you were going to die at 60. But if you ate an orange every day, you'd die at 70, would you do it?

Eat the orange, put up the tape a handful of times a year, just get that 50%. The solutions here are hyper focused on 100% and frankly, are a little Draconian at times. We're not looking to create a police state. We just need to slowly deter people. Start with 1. Then 2. And so on.

This horse is dead. The first step is to approach the land manager with some idea like this, with the reference to Nassau and how it has helped them some amount. Go from there. If they say no they say no.
 

RobW

Well-Known Member
Caution tape would work to cut out some percentage of people. Just use the same system Nassau is using. Maybe 5 times a year, you work with the land manager to agree to put up caution tape and some trail closed signs.

Ok so then you stop, let's say, 33% of the users. Those 33% now know not to even bother anymore. So not only have you cut out 1/3 of the people, you have cut the number of cars in the lot. Eventually those people will say to their friends, "Ah forget Six Mile let's go to X because they put the tape up." 33% slowly becomes 50%.

If I told you today that at age 40, you were going to die at 60. But if you ate an orange every day, you'd die at 70, would you do it?

Eat the orange, put up the tape a handful of times a year, just get that 50%. The solutions here are hyper focused on 100% and frankly, are a little Draconian at times. We're not looking to create a police state. We just need to slowly deter people. Start with 1. Then 2. And so on.

This horse is dead. The first step is to approach the land manager with some idea like this, with the reference to Nassau and how it has helped them some amount. Go from there. If they say no they say no.
Keep in mind that it is not just six mile that is getting abused. This may be just the tip of the iceberg. A major campaign for riding trails when conditions are poor is needed, Not just for one trail. So you get six mile avoided 33% more, but other trails get trashed instead.

Jorba puts money into tools, and things of that nature to maintain them but what if they put money into preventive measures to help reduce the strain on maintenance. Like it’s been said before, it’s a thankless job.

We all support jorba and they do a fantastic job. I just wish more time was spent on the PM side of it along with education. Posting up at trails is a major campaign. Just like jorba says, if digging isn’t your thing, then donate. What about donating time to advocate for trail trashing. We are all here on that same page wanting the same outcome. So who do we contact at jorba to get this done? And now that I think of it, my jorba membership is up, donating today and you all should too.
 

Mountain Bike Mike

Well-Known Member
the ball is in @jdog court now.

Can we put signs up or not? why bother continuing to talk in circles anymore? all the comments are repetitive pretty much saying the same thing over and over to each other for as long as this has been a topic.

the old saying... Talk the talk... now walk the walk..

like @jShort said - beat dead horse...
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
the ball is in @jdog court now.

I'm not sure if I agree that this is the final point in the discussion. Look at it from Jay's perspective. He comes to the community with a request, we deliberate for 6 pages of the Internet, then respond that we thought about it and it's his problem. How does that help?

Keeping the discussion going keeps the problem at the top of the discussion pile. That's not a bad thing.

I reached out to Jay to see how I can help. I'm 1 of the 10.
 

Frank

Sasquatch
I agree Norm

Everyone of the JORBA folk out there already have their hands full with TM planning, land manager communication, etc. They all have day jobs, families, and other activities to deal with as well so I think they are asking for additional help that goes beyond tm. If you want to make a difference, contact your local rep and offer some help. If you are unsure as to who it is or how to contact them, check out JORBA.org
 

Mountain Bike Mike

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if I agree that this is the final point in the discussion. Look at it from Jay's perspective. He comes to the community with a request, we deliberate for 6 pages of the Internet, then respond that we thought about it and it's his problem. How does that help?

Keeping the discussion going keeps the problem at the top of the discussion pile. That's not a bad thing.

I reached out to Jay to see how I can help. I'm 1 of the 10.

Many agreed that signage would help and we’re willing to move forward however we cannot until J considers it and takes it back to the park people to give the green light or not.

Since he is the POC for the park / park people, we’re waiting on him.
 

Mountain Bike Mike

Well-Known Member
I agree Norm

Everyone of the JORBA folk out there already have their hands full with TM planning, land manager communication, etc. They all have day jobs, families, and other activities to deal with as well so I think they are asking for additional help that goes beyond tm. If you want to make a difference, contact your local rep and offer some help. If you are unsure as to who it is or how to contact them, check out JORBA.org

Ok but that sounds like the typical canned answer which doesn’t help get an answer if we can do the signs or not
 

jdog

Shop: Halter's Cycles
Shop Keep
serious question here-

do the land managers do anything on their end to educate the public (not just MTB groups ) on the sensitive soil they have during the freeze thaw cycle?

I know these people well and have known them for a decade plus.

They are not micro managing this park.

They have no funds and barely any help.

Most of the year, their biggest manpower push is in mowing.
 

brendini

Member
Yea those signs are generic for all park users. I was more saying something calling out mountain bike users and reminding them that using this park is a privilege and for better or worse we are held to a higher standard than other park users. Also would be a good opportunity to promote the fact that this is volunteer driven maintenance and raise awareness to help chip in. "Attention Mountain Bikers" I imagine these would be useful at any park maintained by JORBA volunteers.

The truth is riding mud is only one of the inconsiderate things mountain bikers do at 6MR that pisses off other trail users. Met plenty of non-locals out there that think this is a mountain bike park not general use trails. We need to educate to drive more stewardship.

if i told you there is a sign at each main trailhead that says something like this, would you believe me?

including something about dog poop.....


View attachment 87698View attachment 87699
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Yea those signs are generic for all park users. I was more saying something calling out mountain bike users and reminding them that using this park is a privilege and for better or worse we are held to a higher standard than other park users. Also would be a good opportunity to promote the fact that this is volunteer driven maintenance and raise awareness to help chip in. "Attention Mountain Bikers" I imagine these would be useful at any park maintained by JORBA volunteers.

The truth is riding mud is only one of the inconsiderate things mountain bikers do at 6MR that pisses off other trail users. Met plenty of non-locals out there that think this is a mountain bike park not general use trails. We need to educate to drive more stewardship.

one thing about those signs. they were funded and procured by someone from here. Jdog and I installed them.
it happened with permission of the park. So there is precedent.
 

roc

Well-Known Member
People actually take the time to complain to someone about trail conditions? I didn’t even know that option existed, who would someone even complain to, and honestly, why would that person care? In the NJ parks (this is strictly my own observation, I could be 100% wrong) I’ve only seen trail maintenance being done by mountain bike crews. In the Adirondaks, I have seen many hiking trails being maintained by hiking groups, but I’ve never seen that in NJ. You would think that the person who is getting the complaint, would know this. Am I way off the mark?
I’m not saying we should ride in poor conditions, but I would think that whoever you would actually complain to, would have some local knowledge about most of the trail work being done by mountain bikers. Am I nuts?
 

Trail Conditions

Current Conditions

powered by Trailforks.com
Top Bottom