Watchung Reservation

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TheLonerider said:
Re: hikeonly, he doesn't seem like any hiker I ever encountered.

I've been hiking there lately myself. I never had a problem with anyone. And when I was riding there (up until today when i saw the signs..now thats uncertain) none of the hikers i saw cared I was on a bike. All were friendly. Hikeronly, if he is a hiker, does not represent the hikers i've seen, nor myself when I hike.

QUOTE: Hikeronly: "No sense deleting any of it as it's already been printed out. " That sounds an awful lot like a threat, doesn't it? Is this guy blacklisting folks? Or what?

It is sad that after 20 years of unfairly excluding park users from riding there, some anti-bike people can't just let it go, especially as Shorepoints (above) has said, the posited county plan is to share with mtbers.

Someday those responsible for this folly of closed trails may be called to explain how they cheated an entire generation . Part of the reason I became a cyclist in the 90s was because there were places to ride.
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Right. No sense deleting any of it as it's already been printed out. You need a reality check if you perceive that as any sort of a threat.

You say, "cheated an entire generation." Mountain bikers are a tiny subculture, some of whom feel automatically entitled to any trail that is rideable. No one has been cheated. You've only been forbidden to ride on certain trails, while other trails are legally available. Grown adults acting like spoiled brats. And kudos to mtbNJ.com for not listing Watchung Reservation as a riding area as it is not a legitimate riding area.
 
So... what areas in our county are "legally available? " in yer view: answer: none, obviously. sure we haven't been cheated. And i'm king george.

a reality check? Spoiled brats? Your ad hominum attacks are as sad as your biases. I don't even know why I bothered responding to your rubbish.

I have info from a long record of opra requests from the county. THE COUNTY. what have you got? You can deny the truth all you want and continue to call us scofflaws. Yeh. and your policy, implemented in a secret meeting in 95 by the county's own admission without public input in an end run around the electoral process -- who answers for that?

Sorry but no one -- not some fellow with a bug against bikers, not anyone else -- has jurisdiction over the truth. You can pretend all you want that all mtb'ers are jerks, or that we were legally banned, or anything else. But too many people are starting to realize what was going on, starting with that the "ban" was a deliberate slap in the face to the electoral process, up to the people weighing in on it who don't have any facts at hand (I'd offer to email you .pdf documents from all the opra requests but you seem unlikely to do anything but ignore them).

John F Kennedy is said to have said an error doesn't become a mistake unless you refuse to correct it. Sounds a lot like some anti-bike fanatics.

Dont even bother answering I'm logging off.
 
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TheLonerider said:
So... what areas in our county are "legally available? " in yer view: answer: none, obviously. sure we haven't been cheated. And i'm king george.

a reality check? Spoiled brats? Your ad hominum attacks are as sad as your biases. I don't even know why I bothered responding to your rubbish.

I have info from a long record of opra requests from the county. THE COUNTY. what have you got? You can deny the truth all you want and continue to call us scofflaws. Yeh. and your policy, implemented in a secret meeting in 95 by the county's own admission without public input in an end run around the electoral process -- who answers for that?

Sorry but no one -- not some fellow with a bug against bikers, not anyone else -- has jurisdiction over the truth. You can pretend all you want that all mtb'ers are jerks, or that we were legally banned, or anything else. But too many people are starting to realize what was going on, starting with that the "ban" was a deliberate slap in the face to the electoral process, up to the people weighing in on it who don't have any facts at hand (I'd offer to email you .pdf documents from all the opra requests but you seem unlikely to do anything but ignore them).

John F Kennedy is said to have said an error doesn't become a mistake unless you refuse to correct it. Sounds a lot like some anti-bike fanatics.

Dont even bother answering I'm logging off.
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I wonder if this particular OPRA filer is the same OPRA filer who refers to county officials as "rat bastards" here:

http://www.angelfire.com/blog/bicyclerider/Watchung.html
 
20 years of lying to the people how could anyone take issue to that characterization, if it was? Or should we love those who lied to us for two decades?

I suggest that if you take objection to someone criticizing misgovernment, your issue should be with the misgovernment, not those who have been subjected to it.

and not for nothing but if the county had conducted itself above board no one would have to file opra requests to find out what a simple law is. is there any other"law"that is not published anywhere? i filed opra requests because i could not find any law or ordinance clearly against mt biking in the over 200 page county code or anywhere else, and i wanted to know what indeed the legal situation was. if what i found out was unflaterring to mtb opponents, they should have thought of that when they engaged in the original conduct. Or did they think no one would look into the facts?

what the heck, I'm done arguing with this guy, see his characterizations of cyclists as spoiled brats and thugs, he is clearly not a cyclist and just trolling. No one seems as certain as those without firsthand knowledge. Anyone else who wants to try and talk to a brick wall step up. otherwise... well thats it bye.

Have a nice evening, hikeronly. I am sorry for you and those of similar bent who refuse to recognize reality. That however does not stop me from hoping the day comes that whenever some closeminded soul says "there ought to be a law", he gets asked "why", and goes away, to leave the rest of us in peace
 
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TheLonerider said:
20 years of lying to the people how could anyone take issue to that characterization, if it was? Or should we love those who lied to us for two decades?

I suggest that if you take objection to someone criticizing misgovernment, your issue should be with the misgovernment, not those who have been subjected to it.

and not for nothing but if the county had conducted itself above board no one would have to file opra requests to find out what a simple law is. is there any other"law"that is not published anywhere?
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Oh, but it is published. Shame on those who have misled others with false hope that there has been no ban. Take off your blinders. And google - it's a verb.
 
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since neither of you appear to be land managers of the reservation, I think it would be good for both of you to think, pause, and to take a breath before you hit "Post Reply" again.
 
The rule is based in reason, from a time when the stables were very active, and mtb etiquette was not well circulated or self policed.

geez, all this "blogger" needed to do was ask someone that was there, not the current crop of officials.
side-by-side dh mtb on the bridal trails would be up there. building features that took advantage of the terrain comes to mind.

i'm fairly sure it is a rule, not a "law/statute" - the statute give the land manager the right to establish rules.
"as deemed by..." - meaning it does not need public input to be established or abolished or something in-between.

we agree that it is established - and non-enforcement does not change it.

let's look at the tourne as an example. there are hiker-only trails. the bikes stay off of them. using them, would mean jeopardizing the use of the balance
of the park. Good will has been established, and JORBA members have been active with the scouts, and trail users to expand the park for a better experience for all.
six mile run has a single hikers-only trail - bridges were built at the request of the park. as were other changes for safety.

it really doesn't need to be antagonistic.

i still haven't seen good reasons put forth that the park-wide ban should remain in place year-round.
only that it is the rule....still.
 
As stated there is nothing in the 200 page county code nor online (unless they passed a new law over the last week or so which would indeed be news). The county's own response to my very first opra request was that "the freeholders did not act" to exclude mtb'ing.

Sorry but the facts are what the facts are. I suggest that rather than attempting to outlaw your fellow citizens you spend a moment listening what they have to say, you might learn something. I have found that prohibitive legislation is often accompanied by an ignorance of the subject upon one wishes to legislate.

After all, how many truly literate people support banning books?

How much do you know about mountainbiking, really?

I'm done, going in for supper before this fellow puts me off my appetite....
 
One last thing: fifodie, I hang out at a bike shop run by a guy who was there "back in the day". Some of my fellow riders are guys who were there. I was there! None of us knew exactly how the ban was imposed precisely because it was not done in an aboveboard fashion. I began filing opra requests only when i could not find a clearly published law or ordinance forbidding mtb'ing.

While there doubtlessly were some rude or careless cyclists back in the day (or even now) that is reason to penalize those individuals, not close a whole park. Also, if the county govt't / mtb opponents did not want the unsavory nature of how the ban was imposed to come to light they should not have imposed it in such a way in the first place. Denouncing me as a "blogger" amounts to killing the messenger; it does not address the compelling nature of the message.

i am not a "blogger" but an avid cyclist. I have been hit by careless drivers on the road while obeying all traffic laws (two rebuilt shoulders last one from a foreigner with no US license) and put in time on the trails. I have spent most of the last 20 years as a roadie but am slowly coming back to mountain biking, yes, i was there as a young rider in 1995, unlike some come-lately fellows who want access to watchung but never rode there before. I have been an avid cyclist for two thirds of my life.

To have that dismissed by a fellow rider is offensive. Sorry sir, but I WAS there. I just wasn't informed of what was going on -- like everyone else in the county.

I have proceeded looking up info in good faith when no other alternative was left to me as a citizen who wanted to know what his legal standing is. I am saddened if some other mtb riders do not appreciate that i have spent several months of my life over the last few years working on this, trying to find out what should be a simple truth about gov't policy but was not. You will note that the union county website to this day does not address mountainbiking, even to say it is according to them, banned.
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Then of course there are the good efforts engaged in by JORBA and other local riders. I was there for those too. Like myself these people only wanted a reasonable park policy. I expect grief for these efforts from nonriders or mtb opponents, but not a fellow rider like fifodie. No offense.

Ride safe, that's it.
 
TheLonerider said:
One last thing: fifodie, I hang out at a bike shop run by a guy who was there "back in the day". Some of my fellow riders are guys who were there. I was there! None of us knew exactly how the ban was imposed precisely because it was not done in an aboveboard fashion. I began filing opra requests only when i could not find a clearly published law or ordinance forbidding mtb'ing.

While there doubtlessly were some rude or careless cyclists back in the day (or even now) that is reason to penalize those individuals, not close a whole park. Also, if the county govt't / mtb opponents did not want the unsavory nature of how the ban was imposed to come to light they should not have imposed it in such a way in the first place. Denouncing me as a "blogger" amounts to killing the messenger; it does not address the compelling nature of the message.

i am not a "blogger" but an avid cyclist. I have been hit by careless drivers on the road while obeying all traffic laws (two rebuilt shoulders last one from a foreigner with no US license) and put in time on the trails. I have spent most of the last 20 years as a roadie but am slowly coming back to mountain biking, yes, i was there as a young rider in 1995, unlike some come-lately fellows who want access to watchung but never rode there before. I have been an avid cyclist for two thirds of my life.

To have that dismissed by a fellow rider is offensive. Sorry sir, but I WAS there. I just wasn't informed of what was going on -- like everyone else in the county.

I have proceeded looking up info in good faith when no other alternative was left to me as a citizen who wanted to know what his legal standing is. I am saddened if some other mtb riders do not appreciate that i have spent several months of my life over the last few years working on this, trying to find out what should be a simple truth about gov't policy but was not. You will note that the union county website to this day does not address mountainbiking, even to say it is according to them, banned.
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Then of course there are the good efforts engaged in by JORBA and other local riders. I was there for those too. Like myself these people only wanted a reasonable park policy. I expect grief for these efforts from nonriders or mtb opponents, but not a fellow rider like fifodie. No offense.

Ride safe, that's it.
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did you write that entry? and to that is what i responded. you know why the rule was put in place if you were there. i stopped riding for almost 20 years because of it. it was my introduction to mtb, and the only place i rode. they shut it down, i stopped, never to look for another place (i assumed all of nj would follow) - what did i know as a 20 something??, with career aspirations, just moved on. (i switched to hard court sports)

again, it does not require public input. "you can't swim today, cause water quality is dangerous" falls into the same slot as "riding mtb is too dangerous to the majority of park users..."
they responded to multiple complaints from a strong equestrian lobby - that was more than enough.

i support your effort to find the person that can change the rule. I support your effort to find the people who are "in charge" of those people, to lobby for change.
my post specifically said "park-wide" and "year-round" for a reason. to find out how/why it was put in place is not the question to ask. again, i trust that all that can be done is being done, and that change moves at a glacial pace in cases like this....your efforts, like many others are appreciated.

no offense taken, and none meant.
 
fidodie said:
"you can't swim today, cause water quality is dangerous" falls into the same slot as "riding mtb is too dangerous to the majority of park users..."
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The former is a scientifically-based objective measure, the other is entirely subjective. Your argument is specious.

Relatedly, similiar to how the County charges usage fees for OUR golf facilities, pool facilities, stables, fishing, etc. -- with county residents that already fund those properties entitled to lower registration and usage fees -- so could biking be permitted in Watchung. And with such registration, if someone is biking "dangerously," their privilege could be revoked.
 
Ben, that idea (fees) was proposed as part of the "alternative trails option" proposed in 1995 (correction not 1996 -- it was planned on being implemented in 96 but never went anywhere) according to county documents; it never went anywhere. Re: the assessment of "danger" and mtbs being subjective I must agree. Moreover a ban of this magnitude, which is to be enforced by police, should be subject to not only public input but only based on an actual law or ordinance passed by the elected body. This last is not even about mt biking, it is about preventing fiat government.

And to be fair re: the fees, I would be wary of taking that route. Lewis Morris and other fine county parks do not charge us. Why start that policy and risk it spreading -- Gov'ts never turn down revenue. A slippery slope there methinks.

Fidodie, we disagree of some things but seem to agree on others and sorry if I blew off steam at you. Situation is frustrating at times. Heatwave and two days without riding, then finding my local trails (which id been riding weekly since the signs came down) once again signed as closed doesn't help ... lol. Ride safe, no offense taken, ultimately.

Thelonerider.
 
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Ben_10036 said:
The former is a scientifically-based objective measure, the other is entirely subjective. Your argument is specious.

Relatedly, similiar to how the County charges usage fees for OUR golf facilities, pool facilities, stables, fishing, etc. -- with county residents that already fund those properties entitled to lower registration and usage fees -- so could biking be permitted in Watchung. And with such registration, if someone is biking "dangerously," their privilege could be revoked.
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i'm saying the same person has the right to make the call/rule, based on their authority.
your observation that one is a scientific measure (the limit is actually subjective, not the measure), and one may be anecdotal, is valid.

your solution certainly could be put in-play, but i see self-policing, and expectations on how to act, a more powerful force.

@TheLonerider - appreciate your government/policy perspective - i tend away from using processes against process (if that makes sense) - in favor of risk/benefit.
many tools should be in the bag....
 
Guys for the record: this situation is difficult. The county only communicates with me as they see fit. Recent changes have coincided with a difficult time in my life, so I have been unable to do much more than read forums or send emails.

Most importantly, hug your kids today a bit tighter. I just spent three days escorting a military son to his final resting place for a mom and dad I've known for 20 years. Trail access pales in comparison folks.
 
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KenS said:
Good stuff and nice speaking today. My hands are sort of tied atm.
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Thanks. Sorry if I was less than sedate, it was like getting kicked in the *&^ to see that sign. Many thanks for the JORBA work too! Lets see if we can't work out whats going on here.


fidodie, no problem, i tend to consider those things and should realize others may not or take a diff approach.
Thanks.

ps. Mr. Seebeck, my condolences. I had no idea you were that close.
 
We all no government is far from fair and people with clout have the power. I am from Essex county my whole life(50 years). I began mtbiking long after the bans at our parks. But I have read enough over the years to have an idea what happened in our county. I do not ride and have never ridden any of our parks, so I guess I don't know what I am missing. I hope for your sake it turns out better than the corruption we had handed to us.......... TheLonerider , you can find some threads on here about South Mountain, maybe you can do some research and it may help in the procedure. It does seem like you are in good hands with KenS . Take it EZ and Ride On. While your at it take a listen to AC/DC 's Ride On , enjoy a beverage and relax.
 
TheLonerider said:
Thanks. Sorry if I was less than sedate, it was like getting kicked in the *&^ to see that sign. Many thanks for the JORBA work too! Lets see if we can't work out whats going on here.


fidodie, no problem, i tend to consider those things and should realize others may not or take a diff approach.
Thanks.

ps. Mr. Seebeck, my condolences. I had no idea you were that close.
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Thanks B. Your passion for this topic is admirable. I really wish UC and our group of riders could all be sitting next to me on the bay in eastern long island atm, but it's a pipe dream. We will do what we can as a 575 member organization to represent the thousands of mtbr's in NJ, and hope the UC trail plan continues to include taxpaying folks on bikes.
 
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