Transgender cyclist wins women’s championship

[Patrick]

XXY - male or female? Discuss!

i remembered this from HS biology class, and higher orders (xxxy) exist. They face significant health and societal challenges,
and some don't even know why they feel or look different (undiagnosed, or late diagnosis.)

i think the harder one is the ambiguous genitalia, although chromosome test should provide additional guidance
to the parents. Jamie Lee Curtis mentioned above.

many of us know a trans gendered person, and probably don't know it.

way off topic now.

just to get it back:

transgendered people are not doping. the Q is about a fair playing field at the elite level.

@MissJR - yes, i have the opinion that it is unfair, yet i can not render an opinion on if it should be allowed. I need the people
that it affects to speak out. to help me form an opinion. i doubt they will convince me that it is fair, but certainly they can
make the case for if it matters or not.

 

[A Potted Plant]

Identifying yourself as whatever in regular life is one thing, identifying yourself in sports competition is something else. I identify myself as King of Earth but sadly, no one else agrees!

I think the point of my post is being missed, all I'm saying is acceptance to a group doesn't have bearing on who you are, being my overall intension of my post. My second point being the governing body should have given the choice to participants, since those are who would be affected by her participation.

Her Womanhood doesn't depend on her ability to race as a female, and people need to separate political correctness and fairness, and they do not directly correlate. I understand people want equality but things aren't equal if someone has an unfair advantage. Btw I am all for her being able to complete if other competitors are ok with it

 

[Tim]

I need the people that it affects to speak out.

I am in this camp, too. I'd love to hear other viewpoints on this. It was pointed out that it's all men discussing a topic that doesn't concern them but no other perspectives have been presented.

 

[Tim]

...people need to separate political correctness and fairness

I don't want to derail this from the topic at hand but political correctness does no one any good whatsoever.

 

[Patrick]

I wasn't going to comment on this subject as I'm not the best with words and don't want it to come out wrong. Basically, I'm just not sure. I would like to hear more from the women who are competing against transgender athletes, but I fear most are quiet because they would be criticized.

As a father of two girls who are multi-sport athletes, I've seen from day 1, how they are treated as a second thought and told that's the way it is. Court time late in the day because the boys get earlier choice. One crappy softball field that the parents have to maintain, while the boys get new dugouts and pristine fields. Being told to run one lap less than the boys in a kids mtb race.

These are different issues than transgender, but my girls are only 11 and 13, and they've seen time and time again that the boys get the advantage, or that they can't compete. I've always told them to fight for what they believe to get equal opportunities. When the story about the wrestler came out, I thought what if a person who had transitioned from male to female wanted to compete with my girls? After they've been told that boys are different and compete differently, and given the excuses that boys are stronger, faster, rougher. I would have hard time telling my girls that someone who was born as a male and wanted to now complete as a female, that if she's not breaking the rules and they just have to accept it.

this is exactly what i was trying to say - I don't have a daughter, so i didn't have any specifics. thank you for making it real.

 

[A Potted Plant]

I don't want to derail this from the topic at hand but political correctness does no one any good whatsoever.

I agree and I think second place is a victim of being worried about how she will be viewed by her peers and sadly more importantly her sponsors. If the winner does indeed have a biological advantage it isn't fair to anyone else.

 

[The Kalmyk]

Get in a real talk room with second place and I bet you hear a whole different scenario. Competitive women can be just as bad as men but they are just better at hiding it. I have always been impressed how women are so super supportive of their competitors yet when you bring them home they have that slayer edge to them. Hence why I wonder how supportive 2nd place really is.

After all the second place winner came to win

 

[Patrick]

I don't want to derail this from the topic at hand but political correctness does no one any good whatsoever.

political correctness is stating your opinion without trampling the opinions of others.
it is very often how you say things that matters. Simply stating that this is your opinion, and respect others is enough.
attacking the opinion, rather than the person is appropriate.

go for it, be you. it counts.

 

[Tim]

political correctness is stating your opinion without trampling the opinions of others.
it is very often how you say things that matters. Simply stating that this is your opinion, and respect others is enough.
attacking the opinion, rather than the person is appropriate.

go for it, be you. it counts.

I agree with your definition 100% but that is not how things work. People take things personally regardless of the way in which statements or arguments are made. The unfortunate side effect of this is that there is a general unwillingness to share controversial opinions openly even when said opinions are not motivated by malicious discrimination or bigotry. Political correctness is almost a form of censorship in today's society.

 

[Patrick]

If you look at this at a higher level it comes down to freedom. Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. That's what makes America great, do what you want, as long as it doesn't impede someone else's Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. Changing your gender is a CHOICE that you make. We're not amphibians, you're born a male or female, that's how higher life evolved on earth. Even if you undergo the transformation both physically and in how you identify yourself, your underlying biology is still one or the other. Should we be inclusive of people who make these choices? Yes. However, coming back to sport, insisting on competing with the gender that you now identify yourself, has an impact on your fellow competitors pursuit of happiness, which no one ever takes into account. You made a choice that's impacting other people, its not always all about you.

This is good, really good.

perhaps the best post you've ever made good, as in I have a very new way of looking at this.

the only thing is that some people don't see it as a choice, it is the only way. i base this on personal contact,
and the suicide rate of those who identify differently, and are denied the opportunity to trans (insert level here)
even after, the suicide rate is high, related to societal outcasting (not the technical term) re: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

PS - on being politically correct. this is how to state an opinion without trampling those of others.

 

[Patrick]

I agree with your definition 100% but that is not how things work. People take things personally regardless of the way in which statements or arguments are made. The unfortunate side effect of this is that there is a general unwillingness to share controversial opinions openly even when said opinions are not motivated by malicious discrimination or bigotry. Political correctness is almost a form of censorship in today's society.

ok - i get it. a differing opinion stated openly (even properly) invites retaliation from those who differ, and those who maintain PC.
most people can't handle alternate opinions with intelligent discourse. I wish i could empower you - but i respect that you
have weighed the consequences against the action (yeah, beyond the average human's capability!)
---
So just to let everyone in, this is the sociology/behavior/genetics/heredity stuff i like to delve into, and contemplate.
if i wasn't a comp sci person, i would have been in this space - i've taken way too many psychology classes!!

 

[Blair]

We can disagree on things.



Sex =/= Gender. The genetic determined sex will dominate the potential for outcome in sports. This is why there is a difference in classes for males & females. It's based on the sex, not gender. It's really impossible to say that being born a male isn't an EXTREME advantage. Find me a physical sport where women are better than men.

Gymnastics

 

[stb222]

This is good, really good.

perhaps the best post you've ever made good, as in I have a very new way of looking at this.

the only thing is that some people don't see it as a choice, it is the only way. i base this on personal contact,
and the suicide rate of those who identify differently, and are denied the opportunity to trans (insert level here)
even after, the suicide rate is high, related to societal outcasting (not the technical term) re: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

PS - on being politically correct. this is how to state an opinion without trampling those of others.

However trying to get in the way of people just trying to be happy? At the elite level there are probably quite a few unhappy people. And non team events in running, cycling, tennis and other sports where you are the one competing EVERYTHING is about you. Many of sporting greats destroy everything else in their lives in pursuit of being the best, famous, fastest, or whatever, so why should gender be any different? The doping epidemic is proof that people will do anything to be the best. So not allowing them to change their gender identify and the governing body is getting in their way, rut roh, now we have an issue.

 

[Patrick]

I am a Clydesdale, but for me, that just means I’m a little husky.

yeah, i think they were meant for @ReggieHammond not us in "round mode"

 

[Patrick]

However trying to get in the way of people just trying to be happy? At the elite level there are probably quite a few unhappy people. And non team events in running, cycling, tennis and other sports where you are the one competing EVERYTHING is about you. Many of sporting greats destroy everything else in their lives in pursuit of being the best, famous, fastest, or whatever, so why should gender be any different? The doping epidemic is proof that people will do anything to be the best. So not allowing them to change their gender identify and the governing body is getting in their way, rut roh, now we have an issue.

do you claim that someone actually schemed as a male, that they could be the best female ever with a little nip/tuck?
not beyond the realm of possibility.

 

[stb222]

do you claim that someone actually schemed as a male, that they could be the best female ever with a little nip/tuck?
not beyond the realm of possibility.

Is it confirmed that you had to have had the surgery to compete?

 

[Paul H]

do you claim that someone actually schemed as a male, that they could be the best female ever with a little nip/tuck?
not beyond the realm of possibility.

I was actually thinking about this.... would someone be sick enough to do this....

 

[roc]

yeah, i think they were meant for @ReggieHammond not us in "round mode"

Funny thing, I was going to say, " I'm pretty sure @ReggieHammond is a Clydesdale " but I didn't want to offend him. He's pretty sensitive!

 

[jklett]

I am a Clydesdale, but for me, that just means I’m a little husky.

 

[roc]

Your testosterone levels are too low for that.

It's gold jerry!, gold!