The Indoor Cyclist's support thread

trener1

Well-Known Member
There is also a new complicated test on the Sufferfest, I think allot of these tests coaches and programs come up with is to help make stand out from the crowd, but I have some serious doubts on how much actual science they are actually based on. and like Shrp mentioned true FTP is a full hour of all out, but you will be hard pressed to find any coach prescribing that because no one wants to do it. I recently had this disscusion with a freiend of mind that is a professor of exercise science and a really high level triathlete, and basically his opinion was that if you want the best numbers (outside of a lab with blood lactate samples) then you need to do a full hour.
 

trener1

Well-Known Member
However the flip side to all this is that the test has to be repeatable and something the one is willing to do, so an hour might be to tough to do multiple times per year, so then one should do one of the other tests, and as long as you do the same one each time then your numbers should be reliable.
 

Pampa

Well-Known Member
Actually I would respectfully disagree, true FTP is an hour of power. most people don't use an hour for a test because it's really difficult mentally to suffer for a full hour also it be can really challenging to find a stretch of road where you can lay down a full hour without any interruptions whatsoever, hence the 20 minute test was born.
However IF you have the both the mental fortitude to spend a full hour deep in the hurt locker and a good place to do it then that will give you the best numbers.
The trainer would work but again it comes down to if you can stand doing an effort like this on the trainer.

On side note @Pampa, I am a coach, just in case you are looking.

Thank you for the insights. I feel like I can do a 1 hr all out effort outside. Especially if it's a hill, as I like climbing and can get "in the zone". Holding the same level effort on the trainer, even for 20 min, is tough for me.

Didn't know you are a coach. I just started with another coach today. My first time. Will let you know if for any reason this doesn't work out.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-physiology-of-ftp-and-new-testing-protocols/

This will give you an insight into the physiology of FTP and where I am basing my comments from.

Also, from Coggans "Racing and Training with a Power Meter" he states, and I paraphrase as I don't have the book on hand (I'm at work), he defined FTP as the power one can ride at a quasi-steady state for approximately one hour. Its essentially the point where fatigue occurs much faster if you go above it, and much slower if you're under it. This can be seen as an inflection point on your power duration curve.

my math brain turned on:
so kinda theoretical

yes - FTP is the the area under the wattage curve divided by time - to maximize it, ya can't blow-up at the beginning.
it isn't the power you can make instantaneously, it is the most power you can deliver in that time. going 1 minute more would make you die.
there really isn't a way to do this on a trainer. i've never thown-up on the trainer.

as an example - let's use speed. you ride with a strong wind for 10 miles at 30mph, you turn around and ride back at 10 mph.
strangely enough - you average speed is not 20mph - it is below that. speed is distance/time, the first half takes 20 minutes, the second half takes an hour.
20 miles in 1 hour 20 minutes. or 15 mph !

so come out hard on the trainer and avg 300w for 20 minutes turning yourself inside-out, and for
the rest you can't avg 100. yet holding 200 is doable. *I* would interpret this as the closer you test to your
actual FTP means you'll get your actual FTP.

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why do you get your best times in a race or climbing a hill - psychology. unless you are off the front, you'll constantly want to catch
the next person, hold off the person behind, or not walk. i had a PR on a hill climb when i broke my front der cable and couldn't shift to the small ring. who wants to walk?
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
While true FTP is a full hour the point of this is to establish training zones for when you do other intervals. Usually those intervals are 1-20 minutes long.

From a training perspective you can really WAG a lot of this stuff and see how it works out. As a coach, if I give you a 3x20 @ 285w workout and you do it with no upward HR drift, we can move that 285 up.

It’s all just guessing. I once did an FTP test in the morning then set a new CP20 that evening on an A ride. Time of day & nutrition & 12 other variables make such a difference.

The FTP tester here is training for a 2500 mile race. The actual FTP measured is pretty much meaningless here.
 

Hakimaki

Active Member
@Patrick
You're actually on the right track with the chart! It's very similar to the Power Duration Model posted below.

PDC.png


With this chart we can see the point where fatigue occurs much faster if you go above it, and much slower if you're under it. Physiologically this is a good estimation of my maximal lactate steady state (MLSS) or FTP. I can pinpoint my FTP at 284 watts here (the inflection point) with a time to exhaustion of 44minutes. Any increase in power above 284 at that time you would see a sharp decrease in power, any decrease I can hold it for longer.

I'll add that charts are only as good as the data you feed into it.
 

Hakimaki

Active Member
While true FTP is a full hour the point of this is to establish training zones for when you do other intervals. Usually those intervals are 1-20 minutes long.

From a training perspective you can really WAG a lot of this stuff and see how it works out. As a coach, if I give you a 3x20 @ 285w workout and you do it with no upward HR drift, we can move that 285 up.

It’s all just guessing. I once did an FTP test in the morning then set a new CP20 that evening on an A ride. Time of day & nutrition & 12 other variables make such a difference.

The FTP tester here is training for a 2500 mile race. The actual FTP measured is pretty much meaningless here.
Very good points Norm! The thing with drift is that so many variables affect it, hydration status, temperature, sleep, etc. A very useful metric to use in combination with everything else we're looking at. Now after successfully completing 3x20 without drift, why would you up the FTP as opposed to progressing to 2x30 or 1x60 to see if that can be done without rest? (I am not attacking, honestly picking your brain for your knowledge and decision making process).
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Very good points Norm! The thing with drift is that so many variables affect it, hydration status, temperature, sleep, etc. A very useful metric to use in combination with everything else we're looking at. Now after successfully completing 3x20 without drift, why would you up the FTP as opposed to progressing to 2x30 or 1x60 to see if that can be done without rest? (I am not attacking, honestly picking your brain for your knowledge and decision making process).

Unless you are doing time trials I’m not sure the 2x30 or 1x60 has much practical application. Plus most don’t have the mental fortitude to do that week after week. A lot of coaches have dialed back to 3x15 because it’s too much torture to do 20.

The aim is to raise FTP. So however you get there and keep the rider sane is best.

One of the best training elements IMO is doing tempo after you do your higher intensity intervals. In a race you need to train your body to ride at tempo in between the hard efforts. I think this widget is missed in a lot of training programs.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Unless you are doing time trials I’m not sure the 2x30 or 1x60 has much practical application. Plus most don’t have the mental fortitude to do that week after week. A lot of coaches have dialed back to 3x15 because it’s too much torture to do 20.

The aim is to raise FTP. So however you get there and keep the rider sane is best.

One of the best training elements IMO is doing tempo after you do your higher intensity intervals. In a race you need to train your body to ride at tempo in between the hard efforts. I think this widget is missed in a lot of training programs.

interesting - i remember your FTP5 importance talk irt racing. about not getting dropped, or trying to separate - it is useless if you can't
maintain afterwards.

did i get that right?
 

Hakimaki

Active Member
Unless you are doing time trials I’m not sure the 2x30 or 1x60 has much practical application. Plus most don’t have the mental fortitude to do that week after week. A lot of coaches have dialed back to 3x15 because it’s too much torture to do 20.

The aim is to raise FTP. So however you get there and keep the rider sane is best.

One of the best training elements IMO is doing tempo after you do your higher intensity intervals. In a race you need to train your body to ride at tempo in between the hard efforts. I think this widget is missed in a lot of training programs.
Wonderful insight, never thought about what's best on paper vs what's best for the athlete and what will encourage compliance. Thank you.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
interesting - i remember your FTP5 importance talk irt racing. about not getting dropped, or trying to separate - it is useless if you can't
maintain afterwards.

did i get that right?

I’m a big proponent of CP5 being an indication of how well you do in races. CP60 breeds CP20 breeds CP5. Those with the best CP5 tend to be the best racers. Separation happens & sticks over a 5 minute span.

Then yeah, making it still with tempo after that is pretty important.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Who is the guru on fitness and fatigue?
is it more important as fitness starts to peak?
or more in the ramp-up, reset level? I get that racing should be at peak fitness with low fatigue,
but what about training?
i'm coming off zeroish fitness, and a fat f*k. So avoiding injury, and training soreness which lasts
longer than a day is a real concern.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Who is the guru on fitness and fatigue?
is it more important as fitness starts to peak?
or more in the ramp-up, reset level? I get that racing should be at peak fitness with low fatigue,
but what about training?
i'm coming off zeroish fitness, and a fat f*k. So avoiding injury, and training soreness which lasts
longer than a day is a real concern.

As we learned in My Cousin Vinny, it's a bullshit question. Nobody can answer these, which is why training & peaking is art & luck, not science.

Fitness goes up by applying training load.
Greater load means higher fitness.
High training load adds to fatigue.
Too much fatigue means your daily training load will not be as high.
Sort of a self-correcting machine in that regard but you end up with a lot of junk miles.
GIGO.
So avoid that option - people like us are old & fat. Never a good cocktail.

You should raise fitness slowly but consistently.
Your fitness will go up.
Your fatigue will go up.
The goal is to have fitness slowly go up but the fatigue only slightly outpace it.
Freshness is the difference between fitness & fatigue.
Freshness is this magic bullet that the coaches always want to try to quantify.
Fitness follows a 6 week (ish) curve and fatigue more like a week + (ish).
So you feather your daily training near the goal event to have shorter, more intense workouts.
Your fitness will not fall much.
Your fatigue will fall.
Your freshness will rise.
You win the race and all the ladies love your fat, old self.

IMO the above is meant for people 17-35 years of age. In the real world, it's harder to pull that off. You should just do with someone like Roger does. Ride a lot all year round, be fit all the time, and just race for the heck of it.

In all my years of doing this stuff I have never seen the whole freshness thing line up as they think it should. That is why I lead with the My Cousin Vinny quote.

YMMV. Good luck, We're all counting on you.
 

Glenn Rides After 4 PM CST

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
At the end of December, I started a 4 week FTP builder on Zwift. So far the hardest part is high cadence work at high watts. My current FTP is 242w.
Hoping to increase this number in the end.
Maybe this will inspire others to do something different and out of there comfort zone.
It certainly is for me :)
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iman29

Well-Known Member
Well after I think like 6-7 years and I don’t know how many hours on the trainer this tire is done. Not really too mad it’s really a road tire that I bought brand new just for the trainer way back when. I think even pre zwift when I used to watch you tube videos and google what it meant to do interval training.

36490F7D-22B9-438F-9598-7FC86C088497.jpeg
 

MadisonDan

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Well after I think like 6-7 years and I don’t know how many hours on the trainer this tire is done. Not really too mad it’s really a road tire that I bought brand new just for the trainer way back when. I think even pre zwift when I used to watch you tube videos and google what it meant to do interval training.

View attachment 148064
I has one dem yellow jawns still me thinks.
You need?
 
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