Kingdom Trails trail closures

graveyardman67 said:
The attitude of a small percentage of bikers is certainly not in line with the majority of people I know (as riders).
--Yes, but the impact they have is huge.

I see it in my own back yard. My house sits on the edge of Wildcat WMA and is the start/end point for hundreds of rides. I have had people riding down my driveway to get trail access.
--There are so many ways in and out of Wildcat and it's much less confusing than it used to be.

In addition, there are many lines on the very tight and difficult WC trails that people have straightened out. I've blocking many reroutes off lately.
--Thank you!
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Nice looking property, although the $1M asking price is not chump change. Still... 250 acres... Doesn't have central A/C, which would be a necessity for me, even in northern VT. Needs more garage, too.

Interesting how in the description it even mentions Kingdom Trails.
 
jmanic said:
Interesting listing price history.
Not typical to jack up the price after its been on the market for a year and a half.
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I guess they're banking on it becoming a quiet, VT getaway when KT becomes a ghost town.
 
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I keep going back to this map - if this sticks this will decimate the whole park system. This would basically kill KT for the next few years to the point I'm not sure it could recover. This map is the meat of where 75% (or more) of the people ride. By doing this you cut 1 large trail system into 4 pieces, remove 4 of the best trails, and make people ride the road to connect them.

That will also make road issues exponentially worse.

Also on the map - there are 3 boxes which I assume translates to 3 landowners. The small one is a non-issue so you're probably dealing with 2 major land owners here. One thing that came to mind yesterday is the amount of press that dude Norman got for the Moose Haven trails. I mean he and his wife were in the video and they were almost touted as heros. Is it possible that the 2 people up there who own the red boxes were stung a bit by this? I mean, the guy who owns the parcel of land with the 3 Ts should probably have a statue erected in his honor.
 
Jmann said:
I’m surprised there isn’t a fishing thread. I keep saying I’m going to get back into fly fishing (to get over all the bad memories of my impatient dad trying to teach me as a kid). I recently did a ride by the salmon river in ct that looked like a great fly fishing spot.
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Vermont is the perfect trip for a biking and fishing mashup. Just about every little mountain stream up there has Brook Trout. After a day of riding, the time and light are perfect for a few casts and brews. The Brookies are straight forward to catch. They'll take just about any dry fly as long as they don't see you and the drift is good. Its a good place to get back into the sport and build confidence. I'll also start a generic fishing thread in the other sports forum.
 
Dumb question, dont take this the wrong way, but how would they even enforce this? Looks like a HUGE area with many ways in. People will probably not listen and get the whole place shut down now.
 
This is a real downer -- I loved going up to KT. If those trails close, that is the end of the trail system.

Double edged sword for these landowners. I can understand if they are annoyed at mountain bikers -- there are a lot of rude people on those trails and many of them take the use of that land for granted. Also, as part of that same group, they bathe in the river by the bridge and camp in vans/campers on private property in town (in the parking lot, behind the storage place, behind the lumber shed, to name a few) -- I see that much more now than I have in the past.

While the landowners might get their peace and quiet, that is all they are going to have -- peace and quiet. The local towns (Burke, Lyndonville and even St. Johnsbury to a degree) along many of its small businesses are going to die, period. Also, their property values in Burke are going to tank, no doubt about that. It will be sad -- a trip to KT was our first "destination" mountain biking trip back in 2005.
 
MetalMountainMan said:
Dumb question, dont take this the wrong way, but how would they even enforce this? Looks like a HUGE area with many ways in. People will probably not listen and get the whole place shut down now.
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My guess is that the KTA will do everything they can to change some minds, and if that fails then they are going to have to throw branches and sticks all over the trails to keep people out and prevent the whole place from being shut down.
 
Norm said:
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I keep going back to this map - if this sticks this will decimate the whole park system. This would basically kill KT for the next few years to the point I'm not sure it could recover. This map is the meat of where 75% (or more) of the people ride. By doing this you cut 1 large trail system into 4 pieces, remove 4 of the best trails, and make people ride the road to connect them.

That will also make road issues exponentially worse.

Also on the map - there are 3 boxes which I assume translates to 3 landowners. The small one is a non-issue so you're probably dealing with 2 major land owners here. One thing that came to mind yesterday is the amount of press that dude Norman got for the Moose Haven trails. I mean he and his wife were in the video and they were almost touted as heros. Is it possible that the 2 people up there who own the red boxes were stung a bit by this? I mean, the guy who owns the parcel of land with the 3 Ts should probably have a statue erected in his honor.
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I disagree....I will certainly miss the Ts, but i rode them each over 30 times...ill look forward to some new versions. Pines I could care less about, same with riverwood....just glad Heavens bench, ridge to rim is still intact...albeit the return is going to suck alot more. To me anyway....yes this has an affect on my day of riding there 100%....would I stop going there? no way. I mean if they got rid of sidewider, moose alley, moose haven...ok, now its wrecked. They got rid of 3 great trails, but not the 3 best trails. Just going to have to ride moosehaven more. We'll still have fun....@mitch will still be drunk.

MetalMountainMan said:
Dumb question, dont take this the wrong way, but how would they even enforce this? Looks like a HUGE area with many ways in. People will probably not listen and get the whole place shut down now.
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well you would be riding on someones private property, so i guess the landowner could put up electric fencing (which he has in other areas) or call the cops if he wants.....Which good chance everyone would be gone by the time they arrived....but I would imagine there isnt a whole lot he will be able to really do outside of standing guard or closing down the trail entirely...as in destroying it. Which goes back to the whole problem in the first place....In a place like Allaire...bad things happen to trails and we all get upset about it...but at the end of the day its still a park. It still exists to be a public place. There are rules and rangers to enforce rules (even if they dont work as well as we would like them too). The model KTA has makes 0 effort to so much as "lightly nudge" people to go and buy a pass. IMO...you might have to start enforcing this a little better. Start with making an effort to get people to pay. There are already trail guides and greeters all over...have them check passes. If for no other reasons...A. they will take in more money (im thinking ALOT more) B. maybe learn a little something about how KTA works and that its not a public park. Additionally, when some idiot craps on said landowners yard and they call up KTA to complain...maybe there will be something tangible they can do about it.
 
I might be wrong but if it's gotten to the point of official announcements then it's probably a done deal. I'm sure there's been plenty of discussion already.
I would be curious what the landowners do for income and how much negative pressure the community will exert (or punish).

If the reasoning is a quality of life issue it's interesting two of the most important landowners to the trail system are involved. Just smells funny.
 
@Norm and I decided that our (MTBNJ's) best way to help in this time of crisis would be for us to send @Magic to burrington bench and set himself on fire in protest. Magic, the community thanks you for your efforts....please try not to burn down half of vermont while you are at it.
 
UtahJoe said:
@Norm and I decided that our (MTBNJ's) best way to help in this time of crisis would be for us to send @Magic to burrington bench and set himself on fire in protest. Magic, the community thanks you for your efforts....please try not to burn down half of vermont while you are at it.
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In the event the land remains open, I'd prefer to have shade on that awesome climb. I'll have to pass on this offer.
 
Without those trails, IMO it is not worth the 6 hour drive up there. Dawn just pointed out to me that Roanoke is almost the same distance from us and that place has tons of trails available. I guess all good things must come to an end. :-(
 
JimN said:
If you're just going up there to ride the trails, maybe not. But if you go with a big group of friends, it's still gonna be a pretty awesome time.

You just have to do Sidewinder enough times in a row each day to make it worth it.
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JimN said:
If you're just going up there to ride the trails, maybe not. But if you go with a big group of friends, it's still gonna be a pretty awesome time.
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While true, would you rather hang with the same friends with better trails, or trails that are no longer there. Rhetorical question but you get my point.

Also, we are collectively thinking they will replace these trails with other ones but if 3 land owners are pushing back, I imagine there are another dozen that are on the edge. There's no guarantee that the KTA has a free pass to build whatever they want wherever they want.

I imagine the center of gravity of this trail system may shift towards the Moose Haven side over the next 5 years.
 
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