Kingdom Trails trail closures

This is a really interesting discussion and we can learn lessons from the ongoing KT experiment.

In reality, it is probably probably a mixture of money, congestion, tensions, control, loss of control. KT has changed alot since my first trip to the area in 2003 or 2004 and not all for the better.

I would probably still visit but spend more time in Rutland, Millstone, Killington and GMT than I would normally spend. So it would be a different kind of trip. I spent 2 weeks in VT camping in my van and riding this year. With a shrinking KTA network, it would probably be more like a week with a few days at KTA.

The economics are interesting. First, the property taxes are not as cheap as you would think. So KTA would need to explore a limited land use deal if they buy the property to lower the potential tax burden. Plus property values in East Burke only (not nearly as much in surrounding towns) have escalated significantly as of late. KTA has been buying property so that seems in the cards. I think most landowners up that way are generous but the Victory Hill situation, with a landowner trying to profit from trail access could change the mentality.

I would definitely pay more for a trail pass to get the trails in question back. Historically, I have always bought the season pass in order to support the KTA. But in talking to visitors over the years, many people resent paying access fees to the extent that they would ride in other places to avoid paying the fees. There are alot of new destination places to ride these days. Those trail closures would put a major dent in the Burke VT local economy.

Some places that could benefit from increased tourism from the Northeast: other VT places mentioned above, Brevard, Stokesville, Roanoke, Bentonville, Raystown/State College, Davis WV. We shall see...Hopefully E Burke can broker a solution before Spring; fingers crossed.
 
KenS said:
I was bummed to read about this today. Even in shangri-la, where access deals are done by handshake and everything is seemingly perfect, the landowner always calls the shots. One can only speculate, but this statement from KTA is very telling: Kingdom Trails understands the concerns for the pressure and stress the continued strong growth in trail use and area visits has put on landowner’s properties as well as the roads and small villages where trail access exists. While the success of the trails has brought meaningful economic benefit to the area, challenges and tension points exist around traffic, congestion and pedestrian safety of residents and visitors alike.

This is not about money for those land owners. Anyone who has been visiting Burke for a while has watched the above challenges grow and fester. It started with trails being roached out with braking bumps, then the parking lots overflowing, being expanded, overflowing again, rinse, repeat. Hopefully the grant funds and re-working of D H Rd. will ease some of those concerns; only time will tell.

I will still visit Burke to ride. There are still a whole lot of really good trails left, and the KTA will build more. As many have mentioned, VT has so many other great trail systems. Maybe this will encourage folks to explore some more, spreading some of the "wealth" around the state.

Anyone remember the "Don't Jersey Vermont" campaign from around 6-7 yrs ago? @mergs @Frank
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Reminds me very much of my time in park city....which started like 1 month before the 2002 SLC Olympics were announced.....Of course in that case people in the town were powerless to stop anything, but the complaints were similar. But there was also a direct benefit to a homeowner in park city as their property values skyrocketed......I dont see much benefit to the burringtons.....like: "has brought meaningful economic benefit to the area" Thats great, but to these few landowners....why are they supposed to care that we are making the local bar owners rich? I remember sitting in traffic as a dumb 16 year old trying to get to work or school while morning skiers were flooding into my town....just being so goddam annoyed...I laugh at how naive that sounds now, but at that age i didnt see the big picture. Of course there wasn't 1 person who could have any affect on what happened to park city....whereas a few people have the ability to majorly affect KT...Makes me wonder: Was this a couple of land owners that just said F this, we have had it with people like @pooriggy .....Or was it more of a collective decision by the group...as in they know the piece of land the burringtons own (3Ts) would have the most significant affect on the KTA.

Ill miss the 3 Ts, but there are still so many good trails there...although making a loop through the area is going to suck alot more now. But I will still go.
 
Fat Trout said:
This is very interesting. I've been dealing with this kind of thing for river access for years. The problem for these land owners is they are pulling the plug on something long established. Its still their right, but if they wanted peace, they're not going to have it as they have just drawn massive attention to themselves in the town. If they wanted money, we'll that's not out of the question and while they may have large amounts of land by comparison, if there really are 97 landowners.....here comes the sH&t show if they get settled with as everyone will want their piece.
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Funny that you mention river access. I have the same frustrations when trying to fish. Private property until the river gets polluted, then the government (we the people, excluded from access) get to finance the cleanup. Total tangent; we should probanly create a fishing thread (or support group ?).
 
I can only say that the closures have my Philly group considering other options for the yearly biking trip. They have been renting a house up there for over 10 years now.
 
onetracker said:
Funny that you mention river access. I have the same frustrations when trying to fish. Private property until the river gets polluted, then the government (we the people, excluded from access) get to finance the cleanup. Total tangent; we should probanly create a fishing thread (or support group ?).
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I’m surprised there isn’t a fishing thread. I keep saying I’m going to get back into fly fishing (to get over all the bad memories of my impatient dad trying to teach me as a kid). I recently did a ride by the salmon river in ct that looked like a great fly fishing spot.
 
New here. how do so many of u know this place? Seems so far away. Is it the best or something? I thought there were a ton of bike parks between here and there.
 
MetalMountainMan said:
Is it the best or something?
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On the east coast...if its not "THE BEST" I would say its in the top few..
I was going to say maybe not best individual trail I have ridden, but now the blackbear trail might be....I dont know, hard to pick 1 trail as the best, but that one is pretty dam amazing
but also factoring in number of awesome trails in 1 spot
awesome DH park
great town
Vermont in the summer is fantastic

I cant think of another place where I can have such an absolute blast bombing a downhill run, but yet the trail is easy enough for my 5 year old to ride also.
 
MetalMountainMan said:
New here. how do so many of u know this place? Seems so far away. Is it the best or something? I thought there were a ton of bike parks between here and there.
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It is was the best. You can ride 30-50 miles a day there for several days and not get bored, and then go back weeks later and do it again. The trails are professionally maintained.
*disclosure*
I can manage about 20-25 miles before I'm toast.
 
My theory is that this is a consession move on the part of the KTA to appease landowners. In all likelihood it's more then just 3 landowners out of 97 that are fed up with the crowds coming into town, which are increasing, with an infrastructure unable to handle the capacity. I'd be willing to bet more landowners where threatening to pull out, could you imagine how devastating it would be if 30 random property owners pulled out, navigating trails would be a disaster. While loosing these 3 properties does suck, it's still manageable from a trail network perspective. Visitors to Kingdom may drop a bit, but that's ok, a step back is needed at this point.

Shutting some of the most popular trails in the heart of the congestion problem will reduce visitors but also reduce conflict with area residents, and allow KTA to buy some time to follow through with Network Feasibility study which they received grant money for.

My guess is that within 5-8yrs a better Kingdom will be in place, one which is better able to handle the crowds making it more enjoyable for locals as well as visitors.

From the KTA:
This past July, we were awarded a USDA grant for a Network Feasibility and Infrastructure Study. Thes study through engaging our landowners and community, along with a systems approach, will advocate possible ideal Welcome Center locations, needed parking, access portals, assess traffic to recommend safe flow and dispersion methods, pedestrian crossings, as well as trail network capacity balance. The study
will explore how trails, integrated with economic development, enhance visitor experiences, support local workforce, and most importantly improve residents’ quality of life.
 
MetalMountainMan said:
New here. how do so many of u know this place? Seems so far away. Is it the best or something? I thought there were a ton of bike parks between here and there.
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It's extremely popular because it appeals to a wide range of mtbers. The trails are not technical, it has one rock. What it does have is the best flow, and the ability to get air if you choose to do so. You can go as fast as you want or just cruise, beginners, families, Enduro dudes all love it.
 
I have noticed many more articles surfacing recently regarding the changing culture and the impact (real or exaggerated) of mountain biking. I have to believe that these are real issues affecting the landowners' choice. Clearly access is not an issue for them it's an MTB issue.

I'm probably opening the can of worms by making a very general comment. The attitude of a small percentage of bikers is certainly not in line with the majority of people I know (as riders). I see it in my own back yard. My house sits on the edge of Wildcat WMA and is the start/end point for hundreds of rides. I have had people riding down my driveway to get trail access. In addition, there are many lines on the very tight and difficult WC trails that people have straightened out. I've blocking many reroutes off lately. There seems to be a small percentage of people out there riding that have a very entitled attitude and a general lack of respect. I have seen this behavior KT as well; people riding where there have been no bikes signs posted, littering, poor attitudes towards autos and other people while on Darling Hill etc.

I'm guilty myself in the past for infringing and bending the property lines, but this is something I have been increasingly aware of the last 10 years as we do have more places to ride legally, as well as more trail users. Not saying this is THE reason but a few bad apples can certainly spoil the whole bunch.
 
rumormill is flowing

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We should all pay close attention to this and learn......
Try to remember our access is not a right but a privilege and we should be respectful of other users AND the land we use. I see bad examples more and more and I'm not even riding as much as I used to. We must remind folk who are unaware, or new that the trails we enjoy today could be gone tomorrow.
 
i'm sure no one will continue to ride those trails.........But this is a bummer, I was planning to go there for the first time this spring/summer. Oh well, I'll take my trashy New Jersey Dollars elsewhere...
 
graveyardman67 said:
I have noticed many more articles surfacing recently regarding the changing culture and the impact (real or exaggerated) of mountain biking. I have to believe that these are real issues affecting the landowners' choice. Clearly access is not an issue for them it's an MTB issue.

I'm probably opening the can of worms by making a very general comment. The attitude of a small percentage of bikers is certainly not in line with the majority of people I know (as riders). I see it in my own back yard. My house sits on the edge of Wildcat WMA and is the start/end point for hundreds of rides. I have had people riding down my driveway to get trail access. In addition, there are many lines on the very tight and difficult WC trails that people have straightened out. I've blocking many reroutes off lately. There seems to be a small percentage of people out there riding that have a very entitled attitude and a general lack of respect. I have seen this behavior KT as well; people riding where there have been no bikes signs posted, littering, poor attitudes towards autos and other people while on Darling Hill etc.

I'm guilty myself in the past for infringing and bending the property lines, but this is something I have been increasingly aware of the last 10 years as we do have more places to ride legally, as well as more trail users. Not saying this is THE reason but a few bad apples can certainly spoil the whole bunch.
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From reading elsewhere, it seems like this is really the cause.

It's easy to not see the few bad apples, but the interactions with them can be long-lasting. If it's 1 out of every 100 riders is an asshole, then each property owner on a busy weekend will have a few assholes riding on their land. They remember the 1 out of 100, not 99 out of 100.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I cant believe they would do that after so many years. After reading the article, it does sound like they are trying to fix the problem by doing studies and building new welcome areas and parking lots. It may take a couple of years but it doesnt sound like they are giving up!

I have never been to a bike park but i plan to start going next season. I usually ride allamuchy, stephens, deer park, and kittatiny but its getting a little boring after many years. I plan to try mtn creek first, and then i wanted to check out vermont or NH. Then someday head out west.

My wife's parents have a house in Stratton, VT. Any parks near there u guys can recommend?
 
What we’re seeing in Kingdom isn’t unique to Kingdom, but has been happening around the state. I’ve been watching similar sagas unfold where I frequently ride for years now. Kingdom has been a victim of its own success. Over the last 10 years or so, many other resort communities have looked at the Kingdom/Burkes success and have copied that model to develop a thriving summer tourist season. A lot of credit needs to go to the local advocacy groups aggressively building trails and getting local communities on board. I ride and hang with many of the folks on the local board where I frequent, so I hear what’s happening first hand.

VT has really been developed into a riding the destination. The initiatives over the last 10-15yrs have been successful, and there are lots of other quality places to ride other than Burke. Depending on where, a lot of trail initiatives require local land-owner cooperation. These folks grant access to their land based on a premise that the local economy will benefit, and the use of their land will be transparent. Impact to their land will be minimal, and folks riding through will largely be unseen and unheard. Now that years of work are paying off, issues are inevitable. Some land owners reach the end of their tether. Whether its garbage on their land, lost riders ending up in their yard, a confrontation with that one bad apple, or simply sitting in traffic in town, they have enough. Add to that they often do not personally see any of the benefits of the economic payoff.

I can give you the perspective of my non-riding neighbor up there as an example. He moved up there 20 years ago for the peace, quiet, and solitude. One of the older-school gnarly “locals only” type of trails runs along the edge of his land. The local trail group approached him early on for access and to develop part of his property, and he declined. He just wants to sit on his deck, have a beer, and enjoy the view in peace and quiet. As a result, this trail is purposely left off the trail center map and is unmarked. Still, every now and then tourists end up on this trail, bail out of the tech portions of the trail, and end up in his yard. Some even knock on his door asking for directions. This is an inevitable consequence of increased traffic and illustrates why there will always be issues with losing access. There will always be pissed off land owners.
 
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