How the hell are we supposed to retire?

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
here is how leveraging equity might work.

Rick pulls out $200,000 at 2.75% interest only 10 year loan.
That is going to cost him $458/mo and a balloon payment of $200,000 10 years from now.
He puts that $200,000 in a dividend fund paying about $700/mo - (less 20% tax) so $560
(this fund is VWEAX - there are others, and it would be wise to split it between vanguard and blackstone div income funds)

now for 10 years he reinvests the net dividend, so each month the amount goes up -
using a compound interest calculator (3.4%/10y/compounded monthly) the brokerage account will have $280,000
and the home will have 10 years of appreciation value.
Meanwhile he would have paid about $55,000 in interest during that time. Which he could have been investing.
a monthly payment of $460 at 3.4% compounded monthly for 10 years is $65,000

Was the risk worth it for $15k + appreciation - probably not


=======================

scale the number up to a $500,000 loan.
Then take the market return ~8%, rather than a dividend fund @3-4%

Cost of capital $500,000 * 2.75 / 12 = $1150/mo -> $138,000
Loss of gain on the cost - 1,1150/mo @ 8% compounded monthly for 10 years ~ $72,000 less cap gains tax.

Gain on $500,000 @8% 10 years -> $600,000 less tax
Remember, this is the gain. The original $200,000 is still there and pays off the loan at the end.

figure on +$300,000 after tax.
========================

This is a rough estimate - when the taxes are due, vs the compounding makes a difference. Combo of LTG and short term.
It assumes that there is a surplus cash flow - and enough of an income stream and equity to qualify for the loan.
Market risk and fluxuations.

Here is an interesting one, should this be used to turn pre-tax money into post-tax money?
just up the IRA draw to pay the additional monthly load? it might be more revenue neutral that way
cause of the tax implications, and not that he is dying anytime soon, but passing money not in an IRA
works out better for the heir.
 
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mfennell

Well-Known Member
here is how leveraging equity might work.

I'm not suggesting using home equity to fund investments, but rather to provide income that would otherwise be taxed. That's what the rich do as I understand it.

Rick opens a 200k HELOC. He pays himself $1k/mo rather than withdraw $1600 from his IRA (which would be taxed at 37% because @rick81721 is a baller). As time goes on, he has to gradually increase that $1k to pay the accruing interest but it's still dramatically less than the income tax would be. This lets him gradually extract value from his home without penalty beyond the interest.

I have no idea if this is a good idea, just one that occurred to me.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
I'm not suggesting using home equity to fund investments, but rather to provide income that would otherwise be taxed. That's what the rich do as I understand it.

Rick opens a 200k HELOC. He pays himself $1k/mo rather than withdraw $1600 from his IRA (which would be taxed at 37% because @rick81721 is a baller). As time goes on, he has to gradually increase that $1k to pay the accruing interest but it's still dramatically less than the income tax would be. This lets him gradually extract value from his home without penalty beyond the interest.

I have no idea if this is a good idea, just one that occurred to me.

Check out reverse mortgages.

until 70, (or is it 72 now - cause congress needed to vote themselves some deferred taxes) the IRA distributions are voluntary.
After that, there is a minimum. Careful tax planning says take the minimum and move it up until the next tax bracket.
So if you need to take an RMD (required minimum distribution) - the large equity draw might be more better.

Also, before the full retirement age (varies by birth date), social security is subject to being reduced - so gotta watch that too.

ya need to retire to have enough time to figure out retirement!
or get a good CFP, which seems to be working for Rick.
 

Bike N Gear

Shop: Bike N Gear
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Check out reverse mortgages.

until 70, (or is it 72 now - cause congress needed to vote themselves some deferred taxes) the IRA distributions are voluntary.
After that, there is a minimum. Careful tax planning says take the minimum and move it up until the next tax bracket.
So if you need to take an RMD (required minimum distribution) - the large equity draw might be more better.

Also, before the full retirement age (varies by birth date), social security is subject to being reduced - so gotta watch that too.

ya need to retire to have enough time to figure out retirement!
or get a good CFP, which seems to be working for Rick.
I don't know how good of a CFP you need if you have a good pension. I'll never know.
 

rick81721

Lothar
Here is an interesting one, should this be used to turn pre-tax money into post-tax money?
just up the IRA draw to pay the additional monthly load? it might be more revenue neutral that way
cause of the tax implications, and not that he is dying anytime soon, but passing money not in an IRA
works out better for the heir.

I was thinking more of taking out $300K for a Lamborghini huracan performante 😃

Seriously, more related to your comment in bold. How much should our son inherit? Better to be in real estate or investments?
 

Bike N Gear

Shop: Bike N Gear
Shop Keep
I was thinking more of taking out $300K for a Lamborghini huracan performante 😃

Seriously, more related to your comment in bold. How much should our son inherit? Better to be in real estate or investments?
As someone who has been an Executor, investments are much easier to deal with. Make sure he is named on all your investments to avoid probate.*


*after the lambo.
 

thegock

Well-Known Member
but you would know that and turn down the offer from them. . . . and then explain why and see if they come up.

or are people just in such a hurry to sell that they dont use common sense?

I was just thinking about the online valuation. Should have been more clear.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Seriously, more related to your comment in bold. How much should our son inherit? Better to be in real estate or investments?

Investments - if the tax laws change, and there is money due on the estate or inheritance, and there is no money/liquid asset to pay it,
then it is a forced sale of the home. Depending on if your son can qualify to take enough money out.
Right now your estate is tax exempt to $11,000,000 - homes should be in a revocable trust, with your son the trustee.
investments should have "pay on death" to your son, IRA has a beneficiary. Cars, unless you get the L car, probably won't be
material, but they should not be in the trust.
 

rick81721

Lothar
Investments - if the tax laws change, and there is money due on the estate or inheritance, and there is no money/liquid asset to pay it,
then it is a forced sale of the home. Depending on if your son can qualify to take enough money out.
Right now your estate is tax exempt to $11,000,000 - homes should be in a revocable trust, with your son the trustee.
investments should have "pay on death" to your son, IRA has a beneficiary. Cars, unless you get the L car, probably won't be
material, but they should not be in the trust.

Everything is in a trust now but we have to update since we moved to FL and bought the bunker south. So back to what to do about all the real estate equity? Just thinking at this point - nothing to seriously consider for another 15 to 20 years (hopefully).
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Everything is in a trust now but we have to update since we moved to FL and bought the bunker south. So back to what to do about all the real estate equity? Just thinking at this point - nothing to seriously consider for another 15 to 20 years (hopefully).

if you have only 1 heir, and you are living comfortably, why take the risk?
Might have grand children at that point? In which case non-revocable skip level trusts?
plenty of options - not sure i'd work on squeezing out more, but hey it is there.
 

rick81721

Lothar
if you have only 1 heir, and you are living comfortably, why take the risk?
Might have grand children at that point? In which case non-revocable skip level trusts?
plenty of options - not sure i'd work on squeezing out more, but hey it is there.

Take what risk?
 

tonyride

Don't piss off the red guy
First world problems I know but all this gets confusing for us non-financial folks. I just got done taking a pre-retirement training course and basically my take away is that I'll need to see a financial planner to set my son (only child) up. I'm one of the lucky few who still gets a decent pension in addition to SS and I'm maxing our my 401K + catchup. My plan is to retire in 5 years when I reach 62 and move south (FL). My wife will continue to work when we move and my son will still be in school but my plan is for us to live off of my pension, SS, and what I feel I need from my 401K. Yes, I'm taking my SS at 62 to minimize what I need to take out of my 401K to maximize growth. I plan to use the 3 bucket method to divide up my money to max growth while still protecting me in case of a down market. Our plan is to not touch my wife's 401K and leave all of that to our son along with our house which will have no mortgage. He's too young to gauge how he's going to be with money and we're teaching him but you never know how he's going to turn out. This is the main reason for us needed a financial planner to understand our options. We also plan to portion some money to our church also and charity organizations but my biggest concern is our son. I want to set him up but don't want to enable him if he has habits that are harmful if you get my drift. Another takeaway from that training course is 401K is designed for the owner to use, not as an inheritance. I don't know enough about the specifics and tax ramifications to know why but learned that we can use the disbursements to pay for life insurance because payouts from that is tax free. I know there are funds, POD accounts, etc. but it all gets overwhelming. My challenge is to find the right financial planner and when. Find one while I'm still in NJ and working or wait until we've moved. Yup, first world problems.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
First world problems I know but all this gets confusing for us non-financial folks. I just got done taking a pre-retirement training course and basically my take away is that I'll need to see a financial planner to set my son (only child) up. I'm one of the lucky few who still gets a decent pension in addition to SS and I'm maxing our my 401K + catchup. My plan is to retire in 5 years when I reach 62 and move south (FL). My wife will continue to work when we move and my son will still be in school but my plan is for us to live off of my pension, SS, and what I feel I need from my 401K. Yes, I'm taking my SS at 62 to minimize what I need to take out of my 401K to maximize growth. I plan to use the 3 bucket method to divide up my money to max growth while still protecting me in case of a down market. Our plan is to not touch my wife's 401K and leave all of that to our son along with our house which will have no mortgage. He's too young to gauge how he's going to be with money and we're teaching him but you never know how he's going to turn out. This is the main reason for us needed a financial planner to understand our options. We also plan to portion some money to our church also and charity organizations but my biggest concern is our son. I want to set him up but don't want to enable him if he has habits that are harmful if you get my drift. Another takeaway from that training course is 401K is designed for the owner to use, not as an inheritance. I don't know enough about the specifics and tax ramifications to know why but learned that we can use the disbursements to pay for life insurance because payouts from that is tax free. I know there are funds, POD accounts, etc. but it all gets overwhelming. My challenge is to find the right financial planner and when. Find one while I'm still in NJ and working or wait until we've moved. Yup, first world problems.

learn a little at a time. CFP a good idea. You'll also want to roll your 401k into an IRA for more options.
An inherited retirement plan must be liquidated in 10 years with very limited exceptions, and they can withdraw it all at once if they'd like.
If you are worried that this could lead to excess when young (ie you want to delay the distribution of the money) you'll need a trust,
and designate a trustee - which isn't easy, cause now you are handing the keys to someone else! House and other assets can go in a trust also.

Trusts also cost money, and are taxed heavily if they have moderate income.

Good luck!! and a long, happy retirement. 5 years will fly by - we are about the same age, so we've been planning.
My Dad remarried, and they both wanted to protect their assets for their individual children, so I learned a lot about trusts, wills, PODs, etc.
 
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