How the hell are we supposed to retire?

i didn't hear anything about lowering taxes for the middle?

using some round numbers, there are 100M households (it might be 115, but close enough)
so if all 700 bil$ peeps were taxed +$100M each on average that is $700/house/year. Or maybe we'll exclude the upper middle,
so maybe we get to $1,000 each. Can't even do an AXS upgrade.

solving the crisis 1 billionaire at a time.

now instead of them giving it back, the government just spends it.
now they have $70B more in the government coffers - woohoo! doesn't cover the interest payment on the debt.

think i got the math right.

It's far more complex than what you're suggesting:

 
It's far more complex than what you're suggesting:


of course it is -

But the simple fact that i could add another zero to that number, and for most it wouldn't make a blip -
or it wouldn't go towards savings or reducing debt, it would be used to consume something else,
which completes the circle - putting the money right back where it started.

Somewhere back in this thread i mentioned the passing of unrealized gains, untaxed, is insane.
Estate/Inheritance tax does not need to be any worse than the capital gains tax - the stickler has always been
real property - it can't be divided up like cash.

NJ doesn't have a personal property tax - CT does. Wait until they up everyone's bill because of the state of the used car market!
 
Of course we pay attention to other people's money. How else will you know where you stand? One of the biggest tricks corporate America has pulled off is making people think that their salaries should be kept to themselves, kept secret. It takes away the negotiating power of the employees. I saw a meme a few weeks ago that talked about the head of HR's last act before leaving the company was leaving a sheet of paper with everyone's salary on the copier. These rich folks got us fighting with each other instead of banding together to get our fair share. Then, after not giving us our fair share, they find ways to avoid taxes. And then there's no money to pay for the social programs that people need to get by because they're working for pennies.
What? You actually believe this shit or are you trying to be ironic? The rich have us fighting with each other and are keeping us from getting "our fair share"? We need more social programs? Yea, ok Lenin.
 
Theres a lot of fighting going on in here about changes to tax code or whatever... if either side gets what they want, does anyone see any material changes coming from it? Even if we forced billionaires to sell their shares and distribute them, is it really enough money to fix the major issues we face? If the government had all the money it "wanted" would it even be effective at spending it? I'm far from an economist but I can look at the national debt, and see that we are spending tons, and not getting a whole lot back. Most programs are really ineffective... From the war in the middle east, the war on drugs, the war on poverty, our current infrastructure, our school systems, our social programs... I'm sure we ALL could go on and on. Tons of money spent, and no progress made. Wasted time, effort, blood, and human lives.

Maybe its my particular perspective combined with pessimistic outlook, but it seems like all the fighting gets half solutions from either side implemented. Inevitably these are full of holes that get exploited by just about everyone who can. Even without the holes, the solutions being proposed are shit anyways... This leads to more fracturing and infighting, people who should be working together (working & gentry classes) wind up arguing about ineffective changes. Maybe that's what democracy is intended to be; the illusion of choice?

Just seems like a lot of anger, and rightfully so, but driven by the media at each other rather than the ones actually responsible.
 
Oh no! What will we do to fill in the gaps from all the taxes they don't pay anyway?


This is a great article, btw. Well worth the read time.

If it is behind a paywall for you:


BUY, BORROW, DIE

By

Rachel Louise Ensign and Richard Rubin

Updated July 13, 2021 9:12 am ET

Rising stocks and rock-bottom interest rates have delivered a big perk to rich Americans: cheap loans that they can use to fund their lifestyles while minimizing their tax bills.

Banks say their wealthy clients are borrowing more than ever before, often using loans backed by their portfolios of stocks and bonds. Morgan Stanley MS 1.19% wealth-management clients have $68.1 billion worth of securities-based and other nonmortgage loans outstanding, more than double five years earlier. Bank of America Corp. BAC 0.15% said it has $62.4 billion in securities-based loans, dwarfing its book of home-equity lines of credit.

The loans have special benefits beyond the flexible repayment terms and low interest rates on offer. They allow borrowers who need cash to avoid selling in a hot market. Startup founders can monetize their stakes without losing control of their companies. The very rich often use these loans as part of a “buy, borrow, die” strategy to avoid capital-gains taxes.

Many wealthy people are also borrowing against their portfolios. When Tom Anderson started at Merrill Lynch & Co. in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, in 2002, many of his fellow advisers had just one or two securities-based loans in their book of business. Over the years, he encouraged more clients to borrow and noticed peers doing the same. Now it is common for advisers at big firms to have dozens of these loans outstanding, he said. Merrill Lynch is now a part of Bank of America.

“You could buy a boat, you could go to Disney World, you could buy a company,” said Mr. Anderson, who now consults with banks on how to manage the risks associated with these loans. “The tax benefits are stunning.”

‘Ordinary people don’t think about debt the way billionaires think about debt.’

— USC law professor Edward McCaffery

For borrowers, the calculation is clear: If an asset appreciates faster than the interest rate on the loan, they come out ahead. And under current law, investors and their heirs don’t pay income taxes unless their shares are sold. The assets may be subject to estate taxes, but heirs pay capital-gains taxes only when they sell and only on gains since the prior owner’s death. The more they can borrow, the longer they can hold appreciating assets. And the longer they hold, the bigger the tax savings.

“Ordinary people don’t think about debt the way billionaires think about debt,” said Edward McCaffery, a University of Southern California law professor who says he coined the buy-borrow-die phrase. “Once you’re already rich, it’s simple, it’s easy. It’s just buy, borrow, die. These are planks of the law that have been in place for 100 years.”

President Biden and congressional Democrats have taken aim at some of those rules, saying they amount to a giant escape hatch from the income-tax system for the richest Americans.

The president’s tax plan would raise top capital-gains tax rates to 43.4% from 23.8% and make unrealized gains subject to capital-gains taxes at death after a $1 million per-person exemption.

The changes would make borrowing less attractive but wouldn’t remove all of the benefits of deferring taxes by taking loans against wealth. It may not advance through the closely divided Congress, where Republicans are dead-set against any tax increases and some Democrats have raised concerns about the potential effect on investment and family-owned businesses.

Borrowing has gotten less policy attention than capital gains at death. Limits on tax-free borrowing or shifting to taxes on consumption could yield government revenue from wealthy Americans faster than taxation at death, but there are some drawbacks. First, making loan proceeds taxable would mark a fundamental shift in income taxation. Second, although many people borrow, everyone dies, so the Biden proposal would affect a much wider swath of wealthy Americans.

Securities-based lending tends to follow the market. Wild swings in stock prices in the early days of the coronavirus pandemic raised the specter of margin calls—lenders’ demands for additional securities or repayment to avoid losses. But markets rebounded, and the wealthy borrowed even more.

Borrowers of securities-based loans face less red tape than someone looking for a mortgage or an auto loan. Paperwork is light and the debt often doesn’t show up on credit reports. While some clients opt to repay their loans quickly, many exercise the option to indefinitely accrue interest without making monthly payments.

In addition to the bespoke loans Goldman Sachs Group Inc. GS 0.81% offers clients of its exclusive private bank, the Wall Street firm advertises securities-based loans of $75,000 to $25 million to clients of outside financial advisers with “no personal financial statements, tax returns, or paper applications.” Merrill Lynch recently quoted an interest rate of 3.2% to clients with at least $1 million in assets. Those with $100 million or more can get a rate as low as 0.87%.

Banks don’t mind the low interest rates because they earn management fees on the assets that clients might otherwise sell. Banks typically will lend a borrower at least 50% of a diversified portfolio’s value, Mr. Anderson said. But when he was a financial adviser, Mr. Anderson cautioned clients to not tap more than 25% of their portfolio value to lessen the risk the bank would demand repayment if markets tanked.

While many corporate boards now discourage or even bar executives and directors from borrowing against their stock in the companies they run, insiders at publicly traded U.S. companies including Tesla Inc. Chief Executive Elon Musk and cable billionaire John Malone have pledged more than $150 billion of their stock as loan collateral, according to an analysis by research firm InsiderScore. Those loans are disclosed in securities filings, but loans against other assets aren’t typically publicly known.

Fred Smith, the founder, chairman and CEO of FedEx Corp. FDX 0.05% , had pledged $598 million worth of the company’s stock—about 23.4% of his holdings—for loans as of July 2020. Those loans gave him money for outside business ventures and past FedEx stock purchases, according to securities filings.

Mr. Smith’s borrowings are an exception to FedEx policy, made in part because the company said he had demonstrated the capacity to pay them back if necessary without selling pledged shares. After the company’s stock price had declined, FedEx allowed him to pledge more shares in March 2020 as collateral, noting that he could have been forced to sell shares if the company hadn’t granted him this authority. A FedEx spokeswoman declined to comment.

The loans are particularly appealing to company founders who want to avoid losing voting control after taking their companies public.

Jared Isaacman cemented his billionaire status when his payment-processing company went public in June 2020. Three months later, he put up about half his stake in Shift4 Payments Inc. FOUR 1.01% as collateral for a loan from Citigroup Inc. C 0.65% He repaid that loan in March—and promptly took out a new one from Goldman Sachs.

The loans let Mr. Isaacman, 38 years old, tap his wealth without shrinking his stake—now worth nearly $3 billion. He retained more than 70% voting power as of April, after having invested most of his net worth in the company’s initial public offering.

Shift4 Payments wouldn’t disclose Mr. Isaacman’s loan terms. He pledged about 30% of his stake for the Goldman loan, according to securities filings; such loans are typically much smaller than the value of the pledged shares. Shift4 Payments’s stock has risen about 20% since March.

“These instruments allow for participation in economic upside and do not require him to decrease his stake in the company,” said Nate Hirshberg, the company’s vice president for marketing. “These arrangements are to help fund several personal and charitable endeavors and are not the result of tax planning.”

—Theo Francis
contributed to this article.
 
This is a funny one... My aunts and uncles own a heating and air conditioning company. After the last few years under tRump's tax plan, their business made huge profits. Did that go to the workers? You know, the way "trickle down economics" is supposed to work? Helll no, they all bought vacation homes and are starting to retire early. Money stays at the top.
I am not a fan of trump, but I am curious how much more profit did the air conditioning company make? It could not have been solely based on a better tax rate, could it? Maybe they did a lot more business? On $1,000,000.00 in profit they would realized and extra $140,000.00. That's not chump change, but you're not buying vacation homes and retiring by making that much more, right? I could be way off, but I doubt most HVAC companies are realizing that kind of profit. Having a company that realizes $1,000,000.00 in profit is pretty substantial, many of my friends have second homes and pay for private schools and they aren't coming close to a million a year, in profit. I think less than 1% of the population of the US makes more than $450k.

Even if they were able to realize the gains to allow them to prosper, I am not sure how that effects me or you?
 
Back to the original question:

Leave within your means, embrace austerity
Don't have credit card debt
Get a second job to create more revenue
constantly look for ways to increase your income

How many people do you know that took out loans for their dream wedding?
Don't borrow against your house for a once in a lifetime vacation
Don't take a second mortgage to pay for your kids college
If you can't afford it, don't do it


All these things are way easier said than done, no doubt! I wish I had taken my own advice !
 
Even if they were able to realize the gains to allow them to prosper, I am not sure how that effects me or you?
The tax plans run on the idea of trickle down economics, which is like saying when the company makes more, the employees make more. But in most cases, they don't. Then to pay for those tax plans they make cuts in the programs folks rely on and benefit from. So the middle and lower classes lose out and the well to do benefit. But they got the middle class so hell bent on keeping the poor from getting any handouts that they let the rich pillage everybody.
 
Back to the original question:

Leave within your means, embrace austerity
Don't have credit card debt
Get a second job to create more revenue
constantly look for ways to increase your income

How many people do you know that took out loans for their dream wedding?
Don't borrow against your house for a once in a lifetime vacation
Don't take a second mortgage to pay for your kids college
If you can't afford it, don't do it


All these things are way easier said than done, no doubt! I wish I had taken my own advice !
What a miserable existence
 
Back to the original question:

Leave within your means, embrace austerity
Don't have credit card debt
Get a second job to create more revenue
constantly look for ways to increase your income

How many people do you know that took out loans for their dream wedding?
Don't borrow against your house for a once in a lifetime vacation
Don't take a second mortgage to pay for your kids college
If you can't afford it, don't do it


All these things are way easier said than done, no doubt! I wish I had taken my own advice !

Not having kids in general is a pretty huge leg up. I should be retired by 50 at the latest (~19 more years) assuming everything goes as planned.

Biggest one is take advantage of all the tax advantaged vehicles possible including a HSA if you have one at your disposal.
 
Not having kids in general is a pretty huge leg up. I should be retired by 50 at the latest (~19 more years) assuming everything goes as planned.

Biggest one is take advantage of all the tax advantaged vehicles possible including a HSA if you have one at your disposal.
I love our HSA. I can't believe how much much they tried to push us into the other plan without an HSA in new employee orientation. Ever time I crunched the numbers, I thought, "this can't be right, why are they pushing this shitty plan so hard?" Turns out the only reason is because they make more money with the shit plan, because your required to go to them for all services.
 
It wasn't that bad for me. And it gave me a wonderful retirement.
I guess I could instead have planned on finding a genie in a bottle, or imagined a rich uncle's inheritance, but those are maybes and the rules Roc laid out work for sure. Waiting for the world to change is not a good plan.
I just hate the notion of having to work your ass off and not enjoy any of the fruits of your labor until you reach an age where you may or may not get to enjoy it. People should be able to take nice vacations and enjoy themselves throughout their lives. Otherwise, what's the point?
 
What a miserable existence
Sorry some of us choose to live within our means instead of living it up on credit. 🤷‍♂️
I just hate the notion of having to work your ass off and not enjoy any of the fruits of your labor until you reach an age where you may or may not get to enjoy it. People should be able to take nice vacations and enjoy themselves throughout their lives. Otherwise, what's the point?
Can do both. I take many vacations a year but I don't stay in fancy hotels at resorts.

I spent many vacations sleeping at campsites, now when I get a cheap hotel room I feel like a baller.
 
Not having kids in general is a pretty huge leg up. I should be retired by 50 at the latest (~19 more years) assuming everything goes as planned.

Biggest one is take advantage of all the tax advantaged vehicles possible including a HSA if you have one at your disposal.
This is no doubt that kids are really expensive, but they bring a shot ton of joy also. And, at least for me, I never worked harder than when my kids were younger to try to afford to be able to do nice things for them. It really motivates you.

But, if you don’t want them, god bless you. Don’t have them. And you will definitely have more disposable income. When my kids hit kindergarten, it was like getting a 30K raise.
 
Sorry some of us choose to live within our means instead of living it up on credit. 🤷‍♂️

Can do both. I take many vacations a year but I don't stay in fancy hotels at resorts.

I spent many vacations sleeping at campsites, now when I get a cheap hotel room I feel like a baller.
People shouldn't have to "live it up on credit" to have nice things every once in a while. Ideally, people would be able to live a nice life AND have a nice retirement. But that's not the case for majority of Americans.
 
People shouldn't have to "live it up on credit" to have nice things every once in a while. Ideally, people would be able to live a nice life AND have a nice retirement. But that's not the case for majority of Americans.
Anyone making a middle-class earnings can do that.

And it's funny to talk about retirement as if it's something that everyone had and it was taken away. The fact that people even CAN retire is a new phenomenon. You think a lot of people were living off pensions in their old age 100 years ago? Drawing off their 401ks? Collecting SS? Checking their portfolio to see if they should buy a Kia or GT-350 this year?

The above point roc was don't live it up on your credit card, so that you can live it up later. And I agree.
 
The tax plans run on the idea of trickle down economics, which is like saying when the company makes more, the employees make more. But in most cases, they don't. Then to pay for those tax plans they make cuts in the programs folks rely on and benefit from.
it’s tough to argue with your logic on the owner of the company keeping the money and not passing it down, most probably do that. Believe it not, some do give bonuses at the end of the year, when the company does better
So the middle and lower classes lose out and the well to do benefit. But they got the middle class so hell bent on keeping the poor from getting any handouts that they let the rich pillage everybody.
This part, I don’t get so much. Honestly, I think most people are living their lives, rich or poor, without a lot of thought on how to keep anybody down. Maybe I’m naive, or blissfully ignorant, could be, nobody ever called me the brightest bulb in the drawer.
 
Anyone making a middle-class earnings can do that.

And it's funny to talk about retirement as if it's something that everyone had and it was taken away. The fact that people even CAN retire is a new phenomenon. You think a lot of people were living off pensions in their old age 100 years ago? Drawing off their 401ks? Collecting SS? Checking their portfolio to see if they should buy a Kia or GT-350 this year?

The above point roc was don't live it up on your credit card, so that you can live it up later. And I agree.
100 years ago there also wasn't tons of shit to spend your money on with advertising that aims to rip your money away and phone bills and cable bills and internet and bikes that cost a months salary. There was just saving money, lol.

I completely agree with not living on credit. Spending money you don't have spirals out of control really fast. I just feel people should be making more money. If you're busting your ass for 40+ hours a week, you should have a decent life, and retirement. And I love high taxes for people that make a lot of money. And I want socialized healthcare.
 
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