Bikes and Moto-bikes - why do they cost… the same?

I would also throw this out there as being a newer on road motorcycle rider - I generally am starting to feel safer on my motorcycle than my road bike. Maybe this is different outside of NJ, but distracted drivers are everywhere now. 20% over the speed limit seems to be the norm and prosecution for people that hit/kill a cyclist seems to be difficult outside of extreme circumstances. Or at least it is hidden after it makes the news.

Poling - wise many motorists dislike cyclists and feel “we are the problem” vs the motorist being the problem (slightly skewed/biased I know) This does not bode well for the cycling market. Definitely a plus for the indoor cyclist industry. But with dwindling riders economies of scale gets harder for ultra high end bikes - add in constant changes/engineering as well as production/tooling for small batches and things get expensive. Then you need to market the product to a narrowing customer base - more money.

I get changing things up to bring new riders in can excite people. But the market also appears to be much larger for motorcycles - and the models really do not change much over a five year period. With little change brings reliability/less hassle. With cycling constantly changing - reliability can become a factor.

As for racing - I know a lot of people that race stock Motorcycles in many classes, only changing tires and suspension setup to suit the track and their weight/riding style - just like any of us would with a new bicycle. The market for trailer hitch racks is pretty good and I have even seen a guy towing a motorcycle trailer behind a car to get to the races - after all
Many MX bikes are 300lbs or under. This makes transporting comparable.

I sure hope they figure it out - as I really do enjoy pedal bikes.
 
@Johnny Utah i don’t geek out on the tech and tend to hold onto a bike for a long time. My last bike made it seven years. The difference between the bike I have now and the old one is incredible. I got all the doodads with this purchase too, including electric shift. It is the equivalent of a moto quick shifter. Very nice to have. Completely unnecessary but not sure I’ll be able to go back. I’m not sure what I paid for those components on the drivetrain, but probably a significant percentage of what I paid for the bike before I bought this new one.

For me, the perception of value just doesn’t seem to be there in the cost of a mountain bike. This new ride is more comfortable, lighter, has dual suspension and electric shift. All I need is pedal assist and I’d be at the peak of mtb tech IMHO. The best way i can pull value is just ride it a shit ton. Then cost per ride drops and the value gets more sensible to me.

As far as safety feel goes on the road. I 100% agree about “feeling” safer. I prefer the motorcycle, I’m with traffics vs getting passed by everyone. Not being subject to the whim of every driver feels better, but it’s speed that kills.
 
Ok.. I'll play along.

Motos cost more.

This is the bike i'd buy if I were shopping:

2000000001.jpg


www.team-motorsports.com

2024 KTM 350 XW-F in De Pere, Wisconsin

CHASE NEW LIMITS With its 250-like agility and 450-like power, the new KTM 350 XW-F is built for versatility. But, that doesn't mean it's compromised. Gaining instant recognition on its arrival in 2012, it has become a class-leading model due to its sheer rideability and competitive power...
www.team-motorsports.com www.team-motorsports.com

Thats closer to $15 with tax, delivery and prep

That's before I'd add my parts list:

Steering damper
Seat
Bibs F+R
Heated grips
Proper springs
Better tires
Handgaurds
Rekluse clutch
etc etc

I'm by no way exaggerating when I say that a new woods moto will sit between 15-20K.


As a comparison, this is the mtb id buy today:

1697376725045.png


The very top end version is $11,099. But the pro XO version at $9500 is really all i'd need.

I'd still add pedals, my preferred saddle and tires, but all in it is still cheaper than a new KTM .

So yes, bikes, motorcycles and cars have all gotten to be stupid pricey. The name of the game is to find deals where available.


In the shop right now we have so many bikes that are on sale for between 20-30% off retail (shameless plug /text for options -->>609-924-7433 ).


The market is super oversaturated. I wish i could get the same deal on a new ktm.. but no dice.



1697376769761.png
 
Weight plays a huge factor in the mountain bike world. It is a self propelled device that we ask a lot from, especially in the enduro and DH arena. Even at a lower price point, parts needs to withstand some serious forces. All that RD and technology cost $$$.

Enduro bike / 35 lbs
Rider / 180 lbs … 4x the weight

Yamaha YZ450 / 250 lbs
Rider / 180 lbs
 
@jdog im not in the KTM camp. Great performance bikes but seeing the issues my neighbor has had with his right out of the gate… the cost and reliability don’t line up.

Plus my riding, at this age, is not fast. The big four is where I’d look, for example the Kawasaki KLX300. $6,399 with switchable ABS and adjustable suspension.
IMG_6544.png


Add tax, title, dealer fees, probably $7,400 out the door brandy new. Has enough get up and go for 90% of riders, sorta like how the video talks about how most mtb riders will try 80-90% of what pros will do.

The big four gets you to that price point where it’s really competitive or comparable. Again the weight comes into play. That KTM is probably 100 pounds less with double the HP. But do you need it? Probably not. Want it? Sure.
 
jdog said:
Ok.. I'll play along.

Motos cost more.

This is the bike i'd buy if I were shopping:

2000000001.jpg


www.team-motorsports.com

2024 KTM 350 XW-F in De Pere, Wisconsin

CHASE NEW LIMITS With its 250-like agility and 450-like power, the new KTM 350 XW-F is built for versatility. But, that doesn't mean it's compromised. Gaining instant recognition on its arrival in 2012, it has become a class-leading model due to its sheer rideability and competitive power...
www.team-motorsports.com www.team-motorsports.com

Thats closer to $15 with tax, delivery and prep

That's before I'd add my parts list:

Steering damper
Seat
Bibs F+R
Heated grips
Proper springs
Better tires
Handgaurds
Rekluse clutch
etc etc

I'm by no way exaggerating when I say that a new woods moto will sit between 15-20K.


As a comparison, this is the mtb id buy today:

View attachment 225011

The very top end version is $11,099. But the pro XO version at $9500 is really all i'd need.

I'd still add pedals, my preferred saddle and tires, but all in it is still cheaper than a new KTM .

So yes, bikes, motorcycles and cars have all gotten to be stupid pricey. The name of the game is to find deals where available.


In the shop right now we have so many bikes that are on sale for between 20-30% off retail (shameless plug /text for options -->>609-924-7433 ).


The market is super oversaturated. I wish i could get the same deal on a new ktm.. but no dice.



View attachment 225012
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The good news is there are several new ones in NJ available for $12.5k.

That is basically the bike I have but I have but the Husky version. Arguably you can ride it as is out the door - the other items are preference and can be the same on the Pivot you posted as an example. Whether the shop eats the cost of swapping those parts when buying a complete build from the manufacturer is up to the shop.

I put dirt tires and a Seat Concepts Seat on my Moto at the time of purchase - $14k out the door during COVID for my Moto -with tax and title - now most manufactures offer $1-2k in rebates or 1.99% financing.

Since buying my Moto in February I put 3500 miles (mostly woods) on it with zero maintenance beyond oil changes, cleaning the air filter and replacing a worn tire.

One nice plus is it doubles as transportation and will remain relevant for five to ten years.

A $10k + bicycle is old news now in 2-3 years and difficult to find parts for after five years as the industry is constantly changing standards.

It also doesn’t help that shops will steer you into a new bike when they can. I am not going to name which shop owner in Ocean County has done this (I am sure there are more than one) but I have been told my bike is old news and potentially dangerous because of old school geometry - on a $6k bike from 2018?!? The bike rides fine🙃

An argument for the bicycle is that a mid level bike is more comparable to a Moto. Mid level bikes work fine for 99% of us, but the ultra high end bike is needed to keep up with the “Brand Appearance” of being “High End” for manufacturers- Hence why most custom or boutique builders stay on the high end. Trying to make a bike for all the price points and cover the behind the scenes carry costs requires some serious capital.

$10k + for something that rapidly depreciates ands becomes irrelevant has a limited market. It appears that market will continue to shrink - it will be interesting what the mid-larger players will do.

Smaller players can come and go to meet market need - this has been seen with builders like Chris Chance and Frank the Welder. Hell Mone operates out of a van to build high end custom stuff (although not carbon).

Bikes are turning into status symbols like a Rolex. $20k for a watch - not for me - my phone, car, motocycle, garmin all have a clock on them.
 
Johnny Utah said:
The good news is there are several new ones in NJ available for $12.5k.

That is basically the bike I have but I have but the Husky version. Arguably you can ride it as is out the door - the other items are preference and can be the same on the Pivot you posted as an example. Whether the shop eats the cost of swapping those parts when buying a complete build from the manufacturer is up to the shop.

I put dirt tires and a Seat Concepts Seat on my Moto at the time of purchase - $14k out the door during COVID for my Moto -with tax and title - now most manufactures offer $1-2k in rebates or 1.99% financing.

Since buying my Moto in February I put 3500 miles (mostly woods) on it with zero maintenance beyond oil changes, cleaning the air filter and replacing a worn tire.

One nice plus is it doubles as transportation and will remain relevant for five to ten years.

A $10k + bicycle is old news now in 2-3 years and difficult to find parts for after five years as the industry is constantly changing standards.

It also doesn’t help that shops will steer you into a new bike when they can. I am not going to name which shop owner in Ocean County has done this (I am sure there are more than one) but I have been told my bike is old news and potentially dangerous because of old school geometry - on a $6k bike from 2018?!? The bike rides fine🙃

An argument for the bicycle is that a mid level bike is more comparable to a Moto. Mid level bikes work fine for 99% of us, but the ultra high end bike is needed to keep up with the “Brand Appearance” of being “High End” for manufacturers- Hence why most custom or boutique builders stay on the high end. Trying to make a bike for all the price points and cover the behind the scenes carry costs requires some serious capital.

$10k + for something that rapidly depreciates ands becomes irrelevant has a limited market. It appears that market will continue to shrink - it will be interesting what the mid-larger players will do.

Smaller players can come and go to meet market need - this has been seen with builders like Chris Chance and Frank the Welder. Hell Mone operates out of a van to build high end custom stuff (although not carbon).

Bikes are turning into status symbols like a Rolex. $20k for a watch - not for me - my phone, car, motocycle, garmin all have a clock on them.
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Who needs a $10k bike? Do you need electronic shifting? No. Electronic suspension? The Fox live-valve I tried sucked. All you need is a good frame, good suspension, and good wheels. I got my "boutique" bike new with top spec suspension, carbon wheels, top-spec dropper, and lowly Deore components for just under 5, brand new at the beginning of the pandemic. Where is the other $5-6k coming from to take you to $10-11k?

I wouldn't worry about changing standards, all new innovation is going into e-bikes (or cheater bikes like the guys in VT call them, sorry, couldn't resist). That's what every shop (around here anyway) is trying to push you into every time you walk in the door.
 
FatTaco said:
Because the mountain bike industry is fucktarded. The other thing is why are components like mountain bike suspension ok to suck, break and fail and it's considered ok. I rarely see motorcycle suspension fail nearly as much as mountain bike suspension parts. WTF?
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100% of MTB customers whine about something being 100 grams heavier while 0% of Moto folks do.
 
Steve Vai said:
100% of MTB customers whine about something being 100 grams heavier while 0% of Moto folks do.
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Seriously I could give two shits. My lightest moto is 287 pounds. And I added a skid plate and a rack. It could be lighter, but will I notice 10-15 pounds? Nope. I just don’t want stuff to break.

I’m the same with my mtb. Whatever will hold up. If my bike weighs a couple pounds more I don’t care, as long as it doesn’t break. But does brake when I need it to.
 
clarkenstein said:
Seriously I could give two shits. My lightest moto is 287 pounds. And I added a skid plate and a rack. It could be lighter, but will I notice 10-15 pounds? Nope. I just don’t want stuff to break.

I’m the same with my mtb. Whatever will hold up. If my bike weighs a couple pounds more I don’t care, as long as it doesn’t break. But does brake when I need it to.
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Very much in the minority on that one. I've installed 1 piece carbon cockpits on E-Bikes to get them under 50lbs 😂
 
Steve Vai said:
Very much in the minority on that one. I've installed 1 piece carbon cockpits on E-Bikes to get them under 50lbs 😂
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My e-bikes have totally made me a reformed weight weight weenie. Cause why f'n bother. First thing I do is add coils, cushcore and heavy ass tires. Never thought I'd add pounds to a bike before it became enjoyable.
 
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Steve Vai said:
100% of MTB customers whine about something being 100 grams heavier while 0% of Moto folks do.
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Hmm... not sure about that... When I was pondering getting into trail dirt bike riding with a used DRZ400, jdog basically said not to follow his path of dumping money into a DRZ400 trying to make it lighter and better performing. Leave it stock and when you get to the point where the bike feels like a hindrance to your skills improvement, pony up for a much lighter and more powerful.

I spend a lot of money on my bikes, but I tend to keep them for quite a while once I figure out what I want. I went through a lot of bikes between 2009 and 2019/20 before settling on the three mtn bikes I have. My main road bike is still my Colnago which is closing in on 30 years old. That said, the idea of an ebike is an ember that is starting to burn. I don't have a timeline on when, but one is definitely in my future. That said, there is a certain feeling of satisfaction sitting here after a 24 mile ride on OZ Trails in Bentonville...
 
Bike N Gear said:
My e-bikes have totally made me reformed weight weight weenie. Cause why f'n bother. First thing I do is add coils, cushcore and heavy ass tires. Never thought I'd add pounds to a bike before it became enjoyable.
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You need to spend a day at the top of the hill with me 😂
 
10 years ago, we were all riding the lightest bikes we could buy. Many of us had the Scalpel down to like 24-26 pounds. Now, many of us have migrated to these 35 pound AM bikes and we're all having a much better time on the trails.

Not sure what to make of that. I enjoy a good piece of cake either way.
 
We are to blame for how much mountain bikes (I guess you can count road and gravel bikes too) cost. I absolutely believe that weight, or lack of, drives up the cost of components and decreases their durability compared to the same components on dirt bikes. What is the first thing people do when they're checking out a new bike? They pick it up to feel how much it weighs. I also think economy of scale may contribute to that too but I could be wrong because I have no clue how many dirt bikes are sold each year world wide compared to mountain bikes. I'm just as guilty as the next guy about being weight conscious with my analog bikes but as mentioned by someone here, I'm less concerned about weight with my ebike.
 
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