Cars, it's electric! Do Do Do

Patrick said:
so this is any car that you plan on using as a family mover? kindofa engineering and economics approach.
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Sure, but I bought a 2019 outback cpo for less than 25k when it was 38k new.....you dont have to eat all of that deprecation..although at this present day with the car market, things are pretty skewed...And by all means buy whatever you want.....my argument was for a cheaper electric car...I dont care what anyone spends their money on.
Patrick said:
The incremental comfort of a stepped-up trim is worth it to me. Adaptive cruise, and lane keep (soon to be super cruise.)
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agree, I love the adaptive cruise in the outback and the lane keeping....
 
THATmanMANNY said:
@Santapez agreement with some of you post but also not sure where this conspiracy is coming from. For clarifciation, there is no maintenance cost. Rotate tires and change cabin filter. If there is something to fix then yes, it may be expensive but any expensive car is expensive to fix (as you note). Sister's 2018 BMW X3 fuel pump and control module failed. I didn't ask how much. My guess is $1,000+

And it seems like you are just referencing the early Model S with the 1st gen MCUs. The cost is $1,500 to replace with MCU2 and get up to speed with a Model 3/Y. That's if it fails.

Battery failure rate.... (I'll try to dig up a vetted source)
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I'm referring to the garbage earlier cars Tesla made, even with their updates. I'm not being Anti-Tesla, but they were a fresh car company with engineers and production not fit for a legacy car maker.

Yes, no maintenance. But if you're buying a Toyota/Honda your maintenance is probably oil changes only. I've got 82k on my Honda and have done oil changes and wiper blades.

Tires are a poor example as electric cars actually go through them more often than a comparable ICE car due to the weight of the vehicle.

And yeah, comparing a Tesla to a BMW or Mercedes, the Tesla is comparable. But the point people like Utah are making is there's no comparable electric car in the lower end of the market.

I have a Honda Fit. It's a cheap car. My last car was a Hyundai Accent. I got into a Chevy Bolt which is basically an electric version of my Honda fit that costs 2.5X as much. The interior is GARBAGE. Barely better than my 2004 Hyundai Accent, and probably shittier than a current Accent.

But we're already past the phase where electric cars are unproven technology. They're only going to get better and more advanced from here.
UtahJoe said:
Sure, but I bought a 2019 outback cpo for less than 25k when it was 38k new.....you dont have to eat all of that deprecation..although at this present day with the car market, things are pretty skewed...And by all means buy whatever you want.....my argument was for a cheaper electric car...I dont care what anyone spends their money on.

agree, I love the adaptive cruise in the outback and the lane keeping....
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What's even crazier is the depreciation on electric cars. Not Teslas but anything else.
 
shrpshtr325 said:
i still stand by the fact that its a good thing many people are holding out since the power grid certainly couldnt handle that much load, no matter how many superchagers they put in, or how many charging stations they install at the mall, that power still has to get there from the power plant. and since most of that power in this country (~60%iirc) is generated by coal, you are just moving the pollution from wherever you drive to the stack of the plant. . . .
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The US power grid gets TWENTY percent (not 60) of its power from coal, down from 40 in 2014. In NJ, coal is 2%, down from 10 in 2010. A neat thing about EVs is that they can get cleaner as they get older. Power companies are more concerned with declining usage than a bunch of EVs.

shrpshtr325 said:
Alot of people are looking at electric to save money, in the long run (cost of ownership perspective) the electric cars mostly (im sure theres something out there im not thinking of right now) are not on a cost level where you can ignore the purchase cost in the lifecycle cost calculations. I know i look at cost per mile to operate my cars, that includes purchase price, fuel, maintenance and repairs (and clearly I'm not the only one).
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With your crazy-ass commute, your direct costs would plummet in an EV unless you're driving a little penalty box. You must be buying gas every other day too. That would drive me insane. How often do you need oil changes?

I used to read the tesla forums quite a bit (which is why I don't want one!). A few people saved big money commuting long distances in an S compared to the similarly priced big German sedan they would have used otherwise.

But cheap operating costs are just a bonus and are the last thing people who actually drive EVs will talk about. I like EVs because they're smooth and silent in a way that's difficult to explain, accelerate like they're always in the right gear, don't require any warmup (start, floor pedal), require a lot less maintenance (rotate tires and, um, wash it), never require a gas station (one of those things that suddenly really annoys you when you don't have to to it for a while), can be pre-warmed in the garage, etc. It's just a lot of little things.
 
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DEEZ NUTS said:
I spent my whole life going to a laundromat, now as a home owner I'm never going to live without my own washer and dryer.

The reason getting gas is acceptable is because you have never had it any other way.
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Conversely, if I could fuel my phone with having to plug it in a wall, I would.

I camp, I hike, go remote, sleep on a boat here and there, and I kinda like living untethered...
 
mfennell said:
The US power grid gets TWENTY percent (not 60) of its power from coal, down from 40 in 2014. In NJ, coal is 2%, down from 10 in 2010. A neat thing about EVs is that they can get cleaner as they get older. Power companies are more concerned with declining usage than a bunch of EVs.
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According to the EIA

"About 60% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels—coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases. About 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 20% was from renewable energy sources."
 
mfennell said:
The US power grid gets TWENTY percent (not 60) of its power from coal, down from 40 in 2014. In NJ, coal is 2%, down from 10 in 2010. A neat thing about EVs is that they can get cleaner as they get older. Power companies are more concerned with declining usage than a bunch of EVs.
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i cant find the statistics on this one, please cite your source, ill be happy to be proven wrong, since even tho im no eco-warrior coal power just sucks. (i know the % varies based on demand, and when demand goes up the 'backup' plants to support that capacity are (were) coal fired)


mfennell said:
With your crazy-ass commute, your direct costs would plummet in an EV unless you're driving a little penalty box. You must be buying gas every other day too. That would drive me insane. How often do you need oil changes?
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oil changes are 2-3 times a year, cost me <$10 to DIY, fuel stops are every 4 commuting days(essentially once a week), almost 3 years on a set of tires, i work a 9 hour schedule with every other Friday off, and with the direction of my commute there is VERY RARELY any traffic. (i go south in the morning and north in the evening, also work early 6am-330) Could i possibly save money? sure, but until the range improves i would be using a significant % every day from new, that cant be sustainable for the batteries (even with the capacity mangement mentioned previously in the thread) and batteries are expensive.
in 100k miles i have changed the oil, put 1 set of tires on the truck, 1 set of brakes and 1 set of spark plugs, and a set of wiper blades . . . .

based on the model 3 (standard range looks like ~$39900, 3-4 c/mile for electric based on quick google) my operating costs for an EV over 100k miles
39900+2550 (3 sets of tires, assuming 30-35k per set based on my experience with car tires)+400 (4 corner brake job, could be more, could be less iv paid both sides of this to DIY) = $0.4585/ mile assuming no repairs and neglecting insurance cost,

im currently paying about 13 c/mile for fuel
31000+800(tires at 75k) +300 (brake pads at 100k)+100(spark plugs at 100k) + $150 (oil changes every 10k) =.4515/mile again neglecting insurance.

did i miss any maintenance costs in there?

you tell me thats significant savings?
 
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Santapez said:
What's even crazier is the depreciation on electric cars. Not Teslas but anything else.
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Those depreciation numbers always ignore any incentives, making them misleading at best. If I still had it, my '15 e-golf would be worth 65% of actual acquisition price
 
rick81721 said:
Oil changes cost you less than $10?? That's right - you get free oil! Just the oil alone for me is $100/change.
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yea that certainly helps, but even so you can get the 5qt jugs for ~$20 if you have to buy them, i would need two for most changes with an almost 8qt oil sump, but its still not a huge expense.

even at $25/jug or $50/ change, if you pay $15 for a filter $65/10000 miles is $0.006/mile driven, anyone who tells you oil changes are a significant cost as far as maintenance goes is either severly overpaying, hasnt run the numbers, or is a fool
 
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one piece crank said:
According to the EIA

"About 60% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels—coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases. About 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 20% was from renewable energy sources."
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I'm not sure if you think you're contradicting me. Directly from your link: 19.3% from coal. I used the same link.

For @shrpshtr325 :
In 2019, New Jersey obtained less than 1.5% of its utility-scale net generation from coal, down from about 10% in 2010.
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Source
 
mfennell said:
I'm not sure if you think you're contradicting me. Directly from your link: 19.3% from coal. I used the same link.
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his same link also says 60.3% from fossil fuels in general, which is what he said, nothing about coal in specific except to lump it in as a fossil fuel.


mfennell said:
For @shrpshtr325 :

Source
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you mentioned national, not NJ, coastal cities tend to be more ahead of the curve on 'clean' electricity generation, the national level is the big deal for total adoption.

your link also mentions that more than 1/2 of the energy generated in NJ is from natural gas, which is still a fossil fuel (granted, generally believed to be cleaner than coal)
 
shrpshtr325 said:
his same link also says 60.3% from fossil fuels in general, which is what he said, nothing about coal in specific except to lump it in as a fossil fuel.



you mentioned national, not NJ, coastal cities tend to be more ahead of the curve on 'clean' electricity generation, the national level is the big deal for total adoption
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Sheesh dude. You said 60% was from coal but the actual number is about 20. I quoted you in my reply. I assume (?) @one piece crank mis-read your original post. I gave national (20%) and NJ (2%) in my post that you quoted when you asked for a source.

EDIT. ah, I see. @one piece crank shared the source for national. I used the same.
 
mfennell said:
Sheesh dude. You said 60% was from coal but the actual number is about 20. I quoted you in my reply. I assume (?) @one piece crank mis-read your original post. I gave national (20%) and NJ (2%) in my post that you quoted when you asked for a source.

EDIT. ah, I see. @one piece crank shared the source for national. I used the same.
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hey, im not saying the facts are wrong, just a little bit different scale wise. its always good to fact check as i know i am not perfect i can only assume you arent either. This kind of back and forth discussion which requires actual thought is always fun.

i also dont own an EV and with my own interests coupled with my wife working in petroleum, i dont see that changing. that said, it is most certainly cheaper for me to drive my truck every day than it is my car :O

i also dont see BEV as the be all end state for transportation, but breakthroughs have changed the path forward before and they certainly could do the same here again.
 
More derailment (but related), I'm considering getting rid of my motorcycle in favor of maybe getting something electric (Zero S, etc) in the next couple of years (anyone looking for a low mileage SV650?). The appeal is the same as a lot of what appeals to me about electric cars. I have 7 different things that require gas at my house (I have two cars, my wife has a truck, one motorcycle, small generator for power outages, lawnmower, and a small rototiller). I imagine that a lot of people on this forum surpass that count by a fair bit. I've gotten rid of gas yard equipment with the exception of the lawnmower, which I plan to replace in the near future. All of those 7 things require at least semi-frequent use to ensure that I don't encounter problems the next time I go to use them and all require some amount of oil/oil filter/air filter/spark plug/fuel stabilizer type maintenance. None of that is a huge amount of work, but collectively it amounts to a lot of general hassle. Battery stuff has issues as well, but by and large it's "make sure battery is charged and it works".

Imagine if we'd all been brought up on battery powered vehicles, lawn equipment, etc and someone invented internal combustion engines. "Hey, instead of this thing that you plug in, is quiet, not really polluting, and generally works, here's something that makes loud obnoxious noises as a result of high frequency micro explosions, you have to put in a smelly liquid with a limited shelf life to make it work, and it requires frequent maintenance to keep it operating. Any takers?"
 
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