How Quickly will mwlikeseBikes be Banned on Trails in our Area?

[KenS]

Also, this is probably already on Jorba's list but would be nice for @michael.su, @KenS and @Frank to weigh in.

This is a complex issue, deserves our attention, and has been on the JORBA Board's agenda for a while now, yes. Until we have voted on a public stance I would be speaking out of school on the topic by commenting here. I strongly suggest that folks in our community educate themselves on the topic and if you feel strongly one way or another, email info(at)jorba.org to provide feedback.

 

[Frank]

I know IMBA has taken a blanket ban but what are the reasons? So far any arguments I've heard cam be made for normal bikes as well. Seems like having an anti e bike stance feeds into anti mountain biking in general. Many of the arguments are the same nonsense the anti Watchung folk were spewing.

I don't know, you'll have to ask an IMBA rep as I'm no longer involved in all that stuff.......I was tagged and entered this convo as just a mtber.
As far as my personal opinion on this argument, I thought I stated my reason clearly on the first page. It's probably a liability issue with motorized co-mingling with non-motorized, equestrian, and foot traffic.

 

[Steve Vai]

I don't know, you'll have to ask an IMBA rep as I'm no longer involved in all that stuff.......I was tagged and entered this convo as just a mtber.
As far as my personal opinion on this argument, I thought I stated my reason clearly on the first page. It's probably a liability issue with motorized co-mingling with non-motorized, equestrian, and foot traffic.

Yeah, just curious. They usually do good research and back up their stance with facts and it hasn't happened in this respect. A lot of knee jerk reactions and fear mongering is all I've gotten. And again, any argument I've heard is also true of normal mountain bikes that we all already ride. Personally, IDGAF either way I just don't like the blanket, misinformed hate. Too much of that nonsense going on in other aspects of daily life these days...

 

[JDurk]

I understand the comments about aiding riders that may have physical limitations. I've encountered pedal assist MTBs twice recently. At the very FLAT small trail of Camden county college and Wissahickon in Philly. Both times, the riders appeared to be experienced, capable riders. At CCC, they were shooting video of each other climbing at best a 20ft climb. At Wiss, stopped at a descent for the uphill riders on a rooty, rocky climb that I may have cleaned twice in 24yrs riding there. Watched as they effortlessly climbed then passed me, heard the motors whining away, one says "you ride here on a rigid SS?" Stood there speechless. I don't get it. I ride to challenge myself.

 

[ryderX]

I find it interesting and a bit unnerving that we bikers are now wheeling out the same arguments that the anti-access/anti-biker pitched forked armed crowds used against us for years. The ebike access issue will directly impacts the health and success of our LBS's. I'd like to hear from some ebike retailers about how ebikes fit into the future of our sport.

 

[Patrick]

I find it interesting and a bit unnerving that we bikers are now wheeling out the same arguments that the anti-access/anti-biker pitched forked armed crowds used against us for years. The ebike access issue will directly impacts the health and success of our LBS's. I'd like to hear from some ebike retailers about how ebikes fit into the future of our sport.

the single difference is an inexperienced rider can effortlessly obtain speeds that are beyond their control, or capabilities without the effort.

would i be responsible if i had a twist grip that gave me 20mph at 6mr? sure.
what is the difference between the irresponsible rider that has to pedal, and one that just needs to put their thumb on button???

otherwise, yeah.
i don't claim add'l trail damage. it probably makes no difference.
at least they don't make obnoxious noise.

let's use the jet ski as the model. remember how that went?
i no longer have a boat license, because of irresponsible jet-skiers. i haven't taken the safety course.
so i had my boat license at 16yo, until 50, when my privilege was revoked for not having taken a class....1,000s of hours from 4hp to 250hp -
even some serious houseboat time on the john river in fla. nope -need to take a course to remind me to have a whistle, fire extinguisher, and PFDs for everyone (plus one that can be thrown)

oh, one more thing.

i've ridden one. and yes, i was able to climb something i'm not sure i could do on my bike because of how steep it was. it is fun.

-----

think i've put enough in for both sides - i'm just really worried about someone that is irresponsible, riding a bike that isn't pedal assist (has throttle) at one
of the parks when it is crowded....but maybe the point is, there are always irresponsible people ???

 

[jdog]

View attachment 57956 View attachment 57955

I see ebikes almost daily at 6mr and at other parks I visit. They are already here and if you think the wave has hit yet, it hasn’t.

You will see hundreds of these at local parks in the next few years. (Legally or not). When the big wave comes (and it will), these riders who just spent BIG money will not be convinced that they can’t just ride wherever they want.

In Europe, these are now accounting for more than 50% of all off toad Bikes being sold. (Really). As this trend spreads here, you will rarely go on any ride and not encounter one. (Think about that)

At my shop we are not actively pushing ebikes. We’ve sold a few, but mainly for commuting.

I personally have a 27+ dual sus, ebike. I use it to pull a trailer full of tools and to pull my kid around.

(This is smoking Tony btw)

What I think needs clarification here is this. There is a huge difference between a throttle e-Bike and a pedal assist. Pedal assist Bikes are more like regular Bikes, but with a cheater button. Throttle Bikes are more like a moped.

Ebikes are so NOT dirtbikes.. trust me



The danger of banning any kind of bike is that it can quickly morph into banning all Bikes. This become more of a tricky topic as the next gen of ebikes will be much much harder to spot. The batteries & motor will get smaller and you will soon find it impossible to visually distinguish an ebike from less than a foot away.

From experience, I can tell you that I can ride for hours with a group of analog riders and they would never expect I was on an ebike if I tried to hide in a group. You can simply meter the output to suit the speed of the group.

I will say that the most dangerous part about ebikes is not the top end speed, but rather the shitty braking that comes along with a 50+ lb bike. I’ve gone to four piston DH brakes on my ebike and it now stops like it should. You will see EVERY brake brand market an ebike specific disc brake shortly or now.

I’ll leave with one last point. In order to properly judge what an ebike really is like in the woods, I encourage you to test one and truly understand what it means to ride an ebike on single track. I objectively will say that there is no increased impact on trails.

It fun as hell, moderately faster at points and more often than not, leaves you with a permanent grin.

 

[Juggernaut]

I'm sorry but this is the one issue I simply cannot support. There is already a ban on e-bikes on nearly all the trails in the area. They are a motorized vehicle, that point is not debatable. Assisted, throttled, governed are not relevant. There is a motor attached to the drivetrain for the purpose of conveyance (assisted or otherwise) and no amount of carefully crafted language can change that.

Conversely, anyplace that other motorized vehicles are permitted, e-bikes should be as well, so long as they meet the safety criteria.

Let's not forget the motorcycle began as a bike. That parallel has and will be used against MTB if we do not make a very clear distinction between what IS a bike and what is NOT a bike.

Electric shifting is an interesting legal topic that may or may not come into play somewhere down the road but for now let's just enjoy it (if we are lucky enough to have it).


I'm sorry but the fact that many people are not physically capable of riding a MTB on trails because of physical limitations beyond their control does not change the facts. It has a motor.

I am actually a perfect candidate for an e-bike. My heart will not allow me to ride most of the trails up north. No amount of training will change that. If I go above 160bpm I begin to I loose peripheral vision, a little more and I feel high as a kite... if I don't stop.. blackout (or worse). A quick troll of any of my rides over the last couple of years on Strava will clearly show this to be true. Life is about balance, for every winner in the genetic lottery...there must inevitably be a looser... I am fortunate enough that the an e-bike is not an impossibility financially but just because I would clearly benefit from one does not make it ok. Not in my eyes; I do what I can and will continue to do so and adjust accordingly... on a BIKE!

Now if we're talking about opening up public lands for off-road motorized recreational vehicles, that's a totally different topic. I DO support that, despite the fact that I do not (nor expect to ever) ride. It's criminal that they don't have proper access, but that's a topic for another thread.

Sorry for the rant.

D-

 

[rick81721]

I'm sorry but this is the one issue I simply cannot support. There is already a ban on e-bikes on nearly all the trails in the area. They are a motorized vehicle, that point is not debatable. Assisted, throttled, governed are not relevant. There is a motor attached to the drivetrain for the purpose of conveyance (assisted or otherwise) and no amount of carefully crafted language can change that.

Conversely, anyplace that other motorized vehicles are permitted, e-bikes should be as well, so long as they meet the safety criteria.

Let's not forget the motorcycle began as a bike. That parallel has and will be used against MTB if we do not make a very clear distinction between what IS a bike and what is NOT a bike.

Electric shifting is an interesting legal topic that may or may not come into play somewhere down the road but for now let's just enjoy it (if we are lucky enough to have it).


I'm sorry but the fact that many people are not physically capable of riding a MTB on trails because of physical limitations beyond their control does not change the facts. It has a motor.

I am actually a perfect candidate for an e-bike. My heart will not allow me to ride most of the trails up north. No amount of training will change that. If I go above 160bpm and I loose peripheral vision, a little more and I feel high as a kite... if I don't stop.. blackout (or worse). A quick troll of any of my rides over the last couple of years on Strava will clearly show this to be true. Life is about balance, for every winner in the genetic lottery...there must inevitably be a looser... I am fortunate enough that the an e-bike is not an impossibility financially but just because I would clearly benefit from one does not make it ok. Not in my eyes; I do what I can and will continue to do so and adjust accordingly... on a BIKE!

Now if we're talking about opening up public lands for off-road motorized recreational vehicles, that's a totally different topic. I DO support that, despite the fact that I do not (nor expect to ever) ride. It's criminal that they don't have proper access, but that's a topic for another thread.

Sorry for the rant.

D-

Like it or not, this is a key point:

The batteries & motor will get smaller and you will soon find it impossible to visually distinguish an ebike from less than a foot away.

Technology marches on. How can this be enforced when the above is here?

 

[Xler8]

Does it have a motor... yes. Does that make is a motorized vehicle... yes. So if the trail can support motorized vechicles, have at it. Otherwise, work on your "non assist" pedal game.

It's really that simple.

 

[Supermoto]

I think the future will show that pushing ebike acceptance on trails will lead to less access for all bikers. All the anti people need to know is it has a motor, it looks like a bike and they will ban everyone. The industry is going to F itself here.

Personally I don't care what people ride and I think public trails should be open to all, but there are many that don't

 

[Monkey Soup]

Lets see how this big "wave" of e-bikes plays out. If it turns out to be anything like the plus-bike "wave", I'm not too concerned. Pedal assist, e-bike, etc. is just lame. With the exception of those that are highly motivated but with serious physical debilitations, its a cheat. Rationalize it any way you want, its a cheat. You may as well just buy a moto and go ride that on moto trails. Does everything in life need to have a shortcut these days? What ever happened to having pride in accomplishing something yourself?

 

[Supermoto]

Lets see how this big "wave" of e-bikes plays out. If it turns out to be anything like the plus-bike "wave", I'm not too concerned. Pedal assist, e-bike, etc. is just lame. With the exception of those that are highly motivated but with serious physical debilitations, its a cheat. Rationalize it any way you want, its a cheat. You may as well just buy a moto and go ride that on moto trails. Does everything in life need to have a shortcut these days? What ever happened to having pride in accomplishing something yourself?

The riders that I have seen on a ebike, being out riding was the accomplishment. They seemed to be enjoying their ride and were looking for mild exercise. Maybe as they get better, they will drop the motor or maybe they will ride further, have a longer, funner day on their ebike.

 

[MadisonDan]

I could see getting one of these years down the road. I'm 40 and have rheumatoid arthritis. My kids are 9 and 12. When they're in their 20's or 30's ( and hopefully ride bikes ) I may need that assist to keep up with them. Hell, in 5 years I may need it to keep up with my friends/neighbors that I get out with from time to time. Until then, I'll race as much as I can, try to get out to more parks, and enjoy the ride. There will be a point though, where sheer will power to push thru the pain isn't gonna be enough, and that pedal assist will be the difference between me going out in the woods, or just sitting on the couch.

 

[Monkey Soup]

I could see getting one of these years down the road. I'm 40 and have rheumatoid arthritis. My kids are 9 and 12. When they're in their 20's or 30's ( and hopefully ride bikes ) I may need that assist to keep up with them. Hell, in 5 years I may need it to keep up with my friends/neighbors that I get out with from time to time. Until then, I'll race as much as I can, try to get out to more parks, and enjoy the ride. There will be a point though, where sheer will power to push thru the pain isn't gonna be enough, and that pedal assist will be the difference between me going out in the woods, or just sitting on the couch.

So, the target population for e-bikes in the future will be geriatrics? I don't see that happening. Also, I know dudes pushing 60 that are still fast on the bike, and amazing skiers, so don't focus on age.

 

[StayHydrated]

So, the target population for e-bikes in the future will be geriatrics? I don't see that happening. Also, I know dudes pushing 60 that are still fast on the bike, and amazing skiers, so don't focus on age.

I think you missed the part about the non-age-related autoimmune disease. Years away from e-bike being disease progression, not purely age. But ok.

 

[MadisonDan]

So, the target population for e-bikes in the future will be geriatrics? I don't see that happening. Also, I know dudes pushing 60 that are still fast on the bike, and amazing skiers, so don't focus on age.

yeah, sucks for me to have arthritis at 40.

 

[Monkey Soup]

yeah, sucks for me to have arthritis at 40.

Believe it or not, I understand. I haven't had a pain free day in the last 12 years. And the day will come when I have to evaluate whether continuing to ride is worth the pain and damage that I'm doing, but an e-bike won't help me. It may make pedaling easier on my knees and hips, but won't save me from the impacts and jarring that a technical descent or jumps deliver.

 

[RSAmerica]

It's all fun and games till someone loses an eye.

 

[Steve Vai]

Remember the days when mountain bikes had no suspension and canti lever brakes? Everyone these days looking for cheats with their shocks and fancy disc brakes. (Sarcasm making fun of typical curmudgeon)