cost of college

UtahJoe said:
@shrpshtr325 really nailed it....I just wanted to add.....


I never actually passed anything above basic math in HS....Failed algebra 1 several times....I hated HS and math (which im sure is the major reason why)...But once I decided that I wanted to be an engineer, I figured out how to get myself thru like 160+ college credits of math. Was never easy for me and I had to study 3 times harder than my natural genius friends....but I wanted to be an engineer so I figured it out. With regards to @shrpshtr325 point #2..... My passion for engineering helped me overcome my sucky math skills. If your daughter has this kind of passion for it, then she can make it happen. Of course what fueled my passion is my love of cars, planes, machines, etc....being around cars my whole life gave me a basis of understanding engineering. Without that love of cars and machines, not sure if I would have been to deadset on this career path. I will also add that my algebra and calc skills were nothing to write home about....I still cant believe I passed diff. eqs....BUT...I had no problems at Thermo, Fluids, machine design where I could visualize the problems. So given some reason for the math, I could deal with it. :)

So its possible yes, but for me it was like: IM GOING TO DO THIS JUMP ON MY BIKE NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES.....then I tried it and crashed 20 times, but kept getting back up and wouldnt quit. (I actually never failed a class in college, but thats bc I had to pay for them myself)
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+1 This sounds exactly like my story! I tell everyone that I'm the only engineer who sucks at math. I will say that even though I don't use it much, I wish I was better at it now. It's not an easy go in engineering struggling with math too.

There used to be Engineering Technology majors at some schools that were more to the practical side and had more limited math, but I did't see that when my daughter was looking (thankfully, she did not get my limitations in math :)). You can also look at some of the other engineering disciplines like manufacturing, industrial, environmental or safety that might have less stringent math reqts.
 
Just tried to speed read throug this entire thread and could comment on so much....but don’t want to write for an hour.

I am an Organic Chemist who finished graduate school from Stevens in 1998. Went to FDU for undergrad graduated in 1994. Yeah, I know that’s a while ago. But I was able to get both undergrad and grad school paid for and I finished it all with less than 8K in debt (some room and board expenses). All of it was on academic scholarships and work study, but that was an era where very few females were in the field.

If you have a daughter who doesn’t like math, don’t push science or engineering. I use complex math daily in every job I’ve ever had.

I am currently an Adjunct Professor at RVCC. If your kid doesn’t mind missing out on the first two years of the ‘college experience’, send them to community college!!! But they must get the associates degree. It will save a ass-load of money to get an associates degree at a community college and it will transfer virtualy anywhere. I don’t recommend trying to get individual CC classes to transfer, most schools will not take them regardless of what people think. But the Associates degree itself as a whole will transfer.

As far as paying for school in the 2020s, we are screwed. I have 3 white Anglo Saxon boys who are all two years apart in age. I’m a chemist and my husband is an engineer. We make too much money for any aid. My kids are smart ‘A’ students but not Ivy material. None of them are gifted athletes. I desperately do not want them to stay in NJ. I want them to travel and see how awesome other places in our country are. Anywhere but NJ.

So I plan on being very poor for a decade. I plan to making each of them each pay for 1 year out of their 4 years of college. I’ve been recommended by many to make sure they have almost no money in their personal bank accounts, and make sure all 529 money is in my youngest sons name (can be used for older kids). But in reality, I plan to be poor and ride my bike to find solace.
 
M3Tim said:
+1 This sounds exactly like my story! I tell everyone that I'm the only engineer who sucks at math. I will say that even though I don't use it much, I wish I was better at it now. It's not an easy go in engineering struggling with math too.

There used to be Engineering Technology majors at some schools that were more to the practical side and had more limited math, but I did't see that when my daughter was looking (thankfully, she did not get my limitations in math :)). You can also look at some of the other engineering disciplines like manufacturing, industrial, environmental or safety that might have less stringent math reqts.
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There are still engineering technology majors out there but most are 2 year degrees. Some are 4 years, but the earnings expectations are considerably lower as expected.

Also the base math seems to be the same for all engineering programs. Are there programs which actually have less math requirements?
 
chemgirl said:
Just tried to speed read throug this entire thread and could comment on so much....but don’t want to write for an hour.

I am an Organic Chemist who finished graduate school from Stevens in 1998. Went to FDU for undergrad graduated in 1994. Yeah, I know that’s a while ago. But I was able to get both undergrad and grad school paid for and I finished it all with less than 8K in debt (some room and board expenses). All of it was on academic scholarships and work study, but that was an era where very few females were in the field.

If you have a daughter who doesn’t like math, don’t push science or engineering. I use complex math daily in every job I’ve ever had.

I am currently an Adjunct Professor at RVCC. If your kid doesn’t mind missing out on the first two years of the ‘college experience’, send them to community college!!! But they must get the associates degree. It will save a ass-load of money to get an associates degree at a community college and it will transfer virtualy anywhere. I don’t recommend trying to get individual CC classes to transfer, most schools will not take them regardless of what people think. But the Associates degree itself as a whole will transfer.

As far as paying for school in the 2020s, we are screwed. I have 3 white Anglo Saxon boys who are all two years apart in age. I’m a chemist and my husband is an engineer. We make too much money's for any aid. My kids are smart ‘A’ students but not Ivy material. None of them are gifted athletes. I desperately do not want them to stay in NJ. I want them to travel and see how awesome other places in our country are. Anywhere but NJ.

So I plan on being very poor for a decade. I plan to making each of them each pay for 1 year out of their 4 years of college. I’ve been recommended by many to make sure they have almost no money in their personal bank accounts, and make sure all 529 money is in my youngest sons name (can be used for older kids). But in reality, I plan to be poor and ride my bike to find solace.
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Thanks for the write up. What do you teach at RVCC? My younger is in the VoTech Medical program with RVCC. My older is the other way around from how you worded it. She's not great in math and problem solving but wants to go into engineering. What she she has is great observation skills but is slow to work out her thoughts. I'm reading the Walter Issacson book on Da Vinci and its interesting to learn that he never really embraced math and completed most of this engineering concepts by observation and testing.

As for your suggestion on CC, we've tried that route. Even offered to buy then a new car, cat, frankincense and myrrh. CC is for some reason a bad word to them.

Haha, about the white 3 boys thing, I'm Chinese, you want to talk about admissions biases?... My buddy is Hispanic and his wife is white, their son was floored when he got into his early decision school. Monies not the big factor for us, just want to make sure it's put to good use. Though there's not enough if they decide to be career students.
 
I briefly read through this trying to catch up. Remind me again...why does she want to be an engineer so badly?? Has she shadowed or interned somewhere??

I was a "math" person in high school. But college math was different...at least for me. I went to Rutgers where calculus was pretty much self taught. By the second semester I was floundering. Luckily I only needed 2 semesters of calc...for undergrad. It came back to bite me in grad school.

I did my bachelor's then took a year off before getting my Master's (geology also). I was fortunate enough to get a full ride/no debt. So after working for 5 years in civil engineering/environmental science work and hating it, I didn't feel too guilty to change careers and getting another Master's in teaching.

As a high school teacher I see so many kids going to college because it's all they know or they are told. This is the mentality of many today. I believe going to county for a year or two is a good idea...or even taking some time off to work or explore. Going back when you have some life experience can do a world of wonder.
 
Robin said:
As a high school teacher I see so many kids going to college because it's all they know or they are told. This is the mentality of many today. I believe going to county for a year or two is a good idea...or even taking some time off to work or explore. Going back when you have some life experience can do a world of wonder.
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this right here is a significant point that i believe many people miss, society as a whole seem to have a hyper focus on everyone finishing high school then goes on to college, a bachelors degree is almost expected anymore, and a masters degree is getting there. In all honesty there are plenty of jobs that are very doable without a degree (or even a complete high school education, tho that is irrelevant to this topic). Also consider that not everyone is cut out for college, or has an interest in high education, vocational schools used to be the thing to do, now its college and vocational schools are basically empty (by comparison). The world still needs the blue collar workers, and for those that arent interested/not meant for college there are some highly paid positions available for skilled labor (machinists, welders ect) who in some cases work very closely with engineers.


ok tangent complete, sorry for that.
 
shrpshtr325 said:
Also consider that not everyone is cut out for college, or has an interest in high education, vocational schools used to be the thing to do, now its college and vocational schools are basically empty (by comparison). The world still needs the blue collar workers, and for those that arent interested/not meant for college there are some highly paid positions available for skilled labor (machinists, welders ect) who in some cases work very closely with engineers.
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Such a true statement. In a decade or two we are going to see a huge shift in where money is being made. There are so few going into skilled labor! Tree Trimming Electrical Lineman (a specific skilled labor) are on average making more money by the time they are 30yr old than same aged college educated folk in most fields.
 
Robin said:
I briefly read through this trying to catch up. Remind me again...why does she want to be an engineer so badly?? Has she shadowed or interned somewhere??

I was a "math" person in high school. But college math was different...at least for me. I went to Rutgers where calculus was pretty much self taught. By the second semester I was floundering. Luckily I only needed 2 semesters of calc...for undergrad. It came back to bite me in grad school.

I did my bachelor's then took a year off before getting my Master's (geology also). I was fortunate enough to get a full ride/no debt. So after working for 5 years in civil engineering/environmental science work and hating it, I didn't feel too guilty to change careers and getting another Master's in teaching.

As a high school teacher I see so many kids going to college because it's all they know or they are told. This is the mentality of many today. I believe going to county for a year or two is a good idea...or even taking some time off to work or explore. Going back when you have some life experience can do a world of wonder.
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She has not able to give us good reasons for engineering, I suspect with the STEM push today and her peers/friends attending engineering programs, it's the "sexy" major to consider. My brother is an architect over in Asia, she interned with him in Japan last summer and had some exposure in addition to architecture; construction, engineering and interior design.

As for readiness for school, my wife thinks the same. She would prefer that me daughter go to CC/work part time for a year or two and from there decide where she would like to land. I think that is a very prudent options for kids who are undecided. I get the let the kids explore their options and all, but at $50-100k a year, that's an expensive way to "find yourself".

I've been running a science program at a Plainfield charter school for elementary kids in hopes to supplement additional interest in the STEM subjects for minorities, especially minority girls. It's sort of a mix between Bill Nye and Mythbusters. The lessons and curriculum are developed by me and I have my kids teach the materials to the children. Ideally I would like to have Middle School kids present the materials, but my kids are both now in HS. I'm looking to working with the Plainfield library to expand this program to the larger community. One observation I've had is that the girls aren't generally as interested in the experiments as the boys? Could that be more cultural related vs. the boy/girl piece?
 
qclabrat said:
What do you teach at RVCC? My younger is in the VoTech Medical program with RVCC. My older is the other way around from how you worded it. She's not great in math and problem solving but wants to go into engineering. What she she has is great observation skills but is slow to work out her thoughts. I'm reading the Walter Issacson book on Da Vinci and its interesting to learn that he never really embraced math and completed most of this engineering concepts by observation and testing.

As for your suggestion on CC, we've tried that route. Even offered to buy then a new car, cat, frankincense and myrrh. CC is for some reason a bad word to them.

Haha, about the white 3 boys thing, I'm Chinese, you want to talk about admissions biases?... My buddy is Hispanic and his wife is white, their son was floored when he got into his early decision school. Monies not the big factor for us, just want to make sure it's put to good use. Though there's not enough if they decide to be career students.
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I teach General Chemistry at RVCC. And yes, CC has became a bad word to most high school students, including my own. But it is a great option for some.

On a side note, I've had numerous females (always girls never the boys) plead with me to give them a passing grade in chemistry even though they don't have the mathematical ability to do so. I've heard so many complaints like "I'll be a disgrace to my family" or "I have to get into a math or science at XXX school so pleeease let me pass this class"!! I know some families force their children into these fields and the kids just aren't cut out for it.

So why does your daughter want to go into engineering if she is not good in math or problem solving? My husband by education is an EE, and although he works more on the management side of things, I would say 50% of his job is crunching numbers and the other 50% is problem solving. So if it's not too late, I agree with what others have said and get her into an internship ASAP so she can really see for herself if that's a type of career she wants. There are many different types of engineers, so maybe there is a branch of engineering out there for her.... but regardless she will still have to take Calculus based Physics, Calc 1-3, Chemistry, Circuits, etc. All math based college classes that will cost you $$$.
 
shrpshtr325 said:
this right here is a significant point that i believe many people miss, society as a whole seem to have a hyper focus on everyone finishing high school then goes on to college, a bachelors degree is almost expected anymore, and a masters degree is getting there. In all honesty there are plenty of jobs that are very doable without a degree (or even a complete high school education, tho that is irrelevant to this topic). Also consider that not everyone is cut out for college, or has an interest in high education, vocational schools used to be the thing to do, now its college and vocational schools are basically empty (by comparison). The world still needs the blue collar workers, and for those that arent interested/not meant for college there are some highly paid positions available for skilled labor (machinists, welders ect) who in some cases work very closely with engineers.


ok tangent complete, sorry for that.
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No, this really relevant, many countries in Europe and Asia have clear technologist path vs an academic path. The initial 2-3 years of school is similar it's just the final years whether they diverge to either a more hands on vs continued academic curriculum. When I started my first job, as a bench chemist, it could have been accomplished by lab tech but as the years passed, I saw the same jobs being filled by graduate level chemists. The higher education actually doesn't prepare them as a bench chemist better than the CC applicants. Unfortunately it's become more of an HR/PR thing to state the credentials in each lab worker's CV. I'm also working with my kid's school, she goes to the Somerset Votech, to change the impression of the community of the Votech programs. Part of the problem is that the sending districts are not promoting Votech, in fear of loosing funding, especially in districts of declining enrollment.
 
qclabrat said:
She has not able to give us good reasons for engineering, I suspect with the STEM push today and her peers/friends attending engineering programs, it's the "sexy" major to consider. My brother is an architect over in Asia, she interned with him in Japan last summer and had some exposure in addition to architecture; construction, engineering and interior design.
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Got it - we are typing simultaneously
 
Ironically the old kid is really good at Trig and Chemistry, straight As in both. My wife is a biochem major, my mother in law PChem and father in law organic chem. Probably in the genetics, but she is sure she has no interest in being a chemist.
 
My oldest did two years at community college, then transferred to the ritzy school, got a degree in January, spent this year studying for and passing most of the CPA exam, and starts work in her field next month. I call that a success. My middle kid is at community college pursuing HVAC, and after one semester, got a job in his field. He now juggles school and work. I call that a bigger success, as his job won't be outsourced to Africa (the next India). My last kid is the one with the real brains to attend real college, but is still in high school.

While college admissions are way up since I went to school, graduation rates are unchanged. That means.... wasted time and money for many. Colleges measure graduation rates over six years for a four-year degree. That sounds like six years of tuition for an undergraduate degree. Many graduates do not acquire a marketable skill at college. Let that sink in. Since many schools let us take their courses on line—for free!—what is the point of paying the tuition if not to get a return on investment?

High schools do a disservice in that kids graduate not knowing what they are good at, or what they are not good at; what the like and what they don't. High schools prepare them for the ACT and SAT, but not for life after high school. Shop classes—some of the best things I ever learned—don't fit into the college prep cattle chute that my kids are steered into.

I will echo the skin in the game comment made above. We show the kids how much money we have to start them with. Theirs to spend on education or to keep once they move out. The rest is up to them. They can do work study, borrow, take a year off and work full time; they have the rest of their careers to finance their education or trade. But we can't borrow to finance our retirement.
 
jShort said:
This thread is great.

My 2 blonde hair and blue eyed kids are going to learn all about community college. They're still little so I'll start breaking them in early.
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Are you a quarter American Indian? A few of my friends tested negative but was hoping there were some in them. I can't remember the percentage, but hitting the right amount is like a gold mine. Also if you are or have a parent or grandparent who has served our country, there's a gazillion scholarships out there for you.
 
qclabrat said:
Are you a quarter American Indian? A few of my friends tested negative but was hoping there were some in them. I can't remember the percentage, but hitting the right amount is like a gold mine. Also if you are or have a parent or grandparent who has served our country, there's a gazillion scholarships out there for you.
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Nope. My sister is all about genealogy. Mostly for health paranoia, but we're half Irish and half Czech with some other stuff thrown in.
If we were Indian, wouldn't we be rich from all the casino $$?? ;)
 
Full dislosure: I'm not just a bike guy, I am also a finance guy. I see way too many people paying for kids college, but not adequately funding retirement. In the grand scheme, college funding occurs only after retirement funding. The parents tell me they will fund retirement after paying for school, basically saving their entire paychecks from age 55 to 65. But somehow before age 65 they get downsized out of a job and out of a secure retirement.

65.9% of high school students go on to college. 55% of those college students (or 36.25% of high school grads) graduate from college within six years of starting. That means you should figure on average five years of tuition for four years of school. This would not be so bad if our economy valued college education, but it doesn't. A person with three years of college does not earn 75% of what a college grad earns. Our economy values the diploma, not the education. Unless the student will graduate and then use that degree in a closely related field, college may be a bad choice. Financially, it sets back the student, and also gives them a later start towards earning and saving. It can also deplete parents assets.

This is just a bad investment decision if parents have enough other funds. But if you are paying for college and starving your retirement you need to reassess. While 36.25% of high school graduates will finish a four-year degree in six years, and some of them will even get a job related to their degree, we parents have a much higher than 36.25% probability of being old and not getting a paycheck. I would rather saddle my kids with the finite cost of student loans (not co-signed) and working while at school than to saddle them with them the open-ended cost of supporting elderly parents who forgot to cover their elder years.
 
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