2014 Singlespeed-A-Palooza

graveyardman67 said:
$75 is fine. Free market bitches. Don't like the price don't race it. Don't like the promoter don't race it. As far as I know these events are run as mini businesses not 503c organizations, the promoter has no obligation to post financials. If he makes some money he deserves it. If it was easy everyone would do it. I'm sure if someone created a race that cost nearly $5000 to do for one week people would do it. It's all a personal choice made by 300 people in less than 2 hours. .
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Could not agree more.

This discussion is absurd.

If you think it is too expensive then you simply exercise your right not to pay it.

it's a great event...a great EXPERIENCE....and the fact that it sold out in 2 hours proves that the market was easily there to support it (i.e., that it was NOT over priced). If it was over-priced it wouldn't have sold out so quickly... Economics 101.

Frankly, I am offended that the promoters felt pressured to explain themselves. I really am.

So what if they make a big profit. Last I checked this was America. If you provide a good product you are entitled to charge what the market will bear.

Hopefully, they make a good profit and they (and/ or their competitors) are encouraged to put on an even BETTER event with the hopes of making more money. It's called capitalism and it's what spurs innovation and improvement in a free society.

...or, if they chose to, the organizer can donate some of the proceeds (as they apparently are in this case).

And to the guy who asked if you conduct all your financial decisions this way.... Answer: yes. I saw the price and thought "I don't have money to burn. So, is this event/experience worth $75 of my hard earned money? The answer is yes. It's a great event. Good race. Beer/food after. Like the water bottle, etc. yes, this is worth $75 to me"

- mark healey
 
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Can we get away from discussing economics here? It's putting a bad taste in my mouth and it's a significant derailment of the thread. If you really have a gripe with entry fees, start a new thread and hash it out. better yet, promote your own races and learn first hand where these entry fees accumulate and ultimately end up. See how much work you put out and what your returns are.

I'd rather talk about the beaten to death question of "what gear should I run at stewart?" (Answer: It's as close to 1 to 1 as possible if you want to be competetive).

I'm really excited to be signed up this year. It's given my wife and I a much needed carrot to kickstart our motivation and get through the waning months of this relatively brutal winter we're having. Neither of us have raced for the past two seasons and are raring to go (I'm nervous already).
 
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Wow, 2 seasons off? Crazy.

Even if you've done 200 races before, I think you'll feel like a newbie again the first time you line up this year. Taking time off, especially at your level, is tough.
 
BShow said:
As a race promotor; This comment offends me. If you really think that race promoters are in this for the money, then you are sorely mistaken. Most of us are in this because we love the sport and are giving something back to the community, whether its the cycling community or a community that needs charitable donations. Many cases, it's both.

These guys put some of the best events that I've ever participated in. They go off without a hitch and they're a ton of fun. Not to mention the fact that there is a huge party afterwards with a full spread of food and drink. They provide a lot of value for your entry fees. I've paid almost as much to race events that have completely sucked. to pay $75 for a really good one, I wont think twice about. and yes, that's how i handle my personal finances. I dont worry about paying a little extra for something that is really good.

For you to sit there and say that they're price gouging because you don't like the $20 increase in fees is, bullisht. I think you're being an asshole and I honestly cant see where you're coming from here.

To the darkhorse guys... keep up the good work and know that the vast majority of us really appreciate what you do. Thanks.
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I'm an asshole because I have a different opinion than you do? So, I shouldn't be voicing my opinion on a public discussion board because someone may disagree with me? I called no one a name, you've taken what could be a productive discussion to a low. Great work.

And yes, I fear that race promoters ARE getting into it for the money. The math is pretty straightforward: $75 x 300 entrants is a lot of money. As racers we have the right to at least question why there is a roughly 20% price increase - without being called an asshole for doing so.
 
This was my first race (last year) as a 46 year old nube. I loved it!!!! When I think about how much money I have spent on my bikes, this argument seems a bit silly to me... But I'm an old, slow guy. :)
 
1speed said:
How many races do you go to that offer food and beer afterward? And how many actually pay the podium finishers more that their reg fees?
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Are you kidding me?...How about these...

Dragons Tale - $45, 40 miles, epic course, food & beer afterwards

Stoopid 50 - $60, 50 miles, epic course, food & beer afterwards

Bearscat - 50 miles, epic course, food & live music afterwards, free T shirt (pretty sure they would have beer too if it were allowed in the park)

The Michaux Endurance Series - 40 miles, epic courses, food & beer afterwards, free T shirt (if you pre reg)

Rattling Creek - 50 miles, epic course, food & swag afterwards, free camping

Green MTN Cycing Challenge - $65, 6 Hours, epic course, food afterwards, T shirt, free camping

and the list goes on...

Almost all of these have generous cash payouts.

Compare the above races to SSAP: $75, 25 miles, ok course (Stewart is fun, but please, it's far from epic), food & beer.

I don't see how anyone could fail to see a value discrepancy here.

I did SSAP the first two years and I think it was 35 of 40 bucks. It was a fun race. I remember seeing something the following year on the DH website about them being shocked that their little race had such a great turnout....here we are 3 years later and the price has just about doubled. As some here have said, it's the promoter's right to charge whatever they want if the demand exists. What worries me is that the promoters of other popular races follow their example and the next thing we know, we're all paying a whole lot more to compete in the sport we love.
The only way I could justify that price is if I were a hardcore SSer, which I'm not.
Perhaps "Price gauging" is too harsh a term, but compared to many of the other races out there, it's pretty clear to me that this race has become overpriced.
 
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case in point: "Competitive Sports Group" is putting on a regular lap race (1 lap sport, 2 lap expert) in Long Island on 3/29. THE COST IS $50!! I was on the last step of registering and then when I got to the Paypal link I stopped and checked if it was for real. This isn't a race at Allamuchy or some amazing trail spot, this is in LONG ISLAND.

I'm the last person to balk at spending money, but know that promoters and "competitive sports groups" have realized what a lot of people are saying here: you would gladly pay double or more to ride your bike. All of the "fondos" you see popping up everywhere are proof, you can walk away with $10,000 dollars profit - maybe more - with some straightforward work. I'm fine with a promoter making money, but it's going to get out of hand unless the racers ask questions, especially when fees go up 20% in a year.

Think about it.
 
EABODS said:
And yes, I fear that race promoters ARE getting into it for the money. The math is pretty straightforward: $75 x 300 entrants is a lot of money. As racers we have the right to at least question why there is a roughly 20% price increase - without being called an asshole for doing so.
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I am struggling to understand why it's a problem for people to make money for organizing a quality event that people enjoy.

Not an "asshole" but you are acting rather entitled IMHO. In my opinion you have no such right. If they hold an event they have the right to charge whatever they wish. And you have the right to pay it or not. But they are under no obligation to explain themselves to you.

The mile-by-mile comparisons might be a nice little exercise you chose to do when deciding what races to do, but the mile-by-mile comparison is completely pointless in the discussion of whether the race is "over-priced" relative to the market. The fact that it sold out in 2 hours tells you everything you need to know about whether it was priced right relative to the market.
 
i think eabods is saying that if we the racers don't pay attention mtb races could end up being priced outside of the racers range. akin to escalation of prices for tickets to concerts and sporting events. it is possible that races become only for the affluent or the gentlemen social type racer.
 
Let the record show that I am registered for this event.

I will not swing my manhood to either the left or right on this issue, but TJ raises a valid point. Why is it valid? Because it is his opinion and as such requires no validation to anyone but himself. If any of us are incapable of entertaining an idea without taking it personally, then we have more serious concerns to deal with.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
 
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As a race promoter, an advocate of the sport, and just a generally direct and honest guy, I quite frankly find it offensive that people get called out for challenging the status quo. As soon as people just take what's there and don't question it, we've lost some of what makes this whole sport organic and grassroots. As someone who has questioned promoters before I was one, I fully get where TJ and Gordon are coming from. As someone who ran a race and was called out by Gordon on exactly the same point, I can say that I'm honestly glad that he did call me out, and he did make me look at the product we were promoting. In the end, our products are better. In the end, Gordon still paid for that race and supported us, as did TJ. And I took Gordon's questions and tried to make the product better. At the end of the day, these guys do a lot of races in a lot of places. And they're simply asking questions in an effort to make the sport as a whole better. I have no problem with that. I encourage it, even welcome it.

Anyone remember JBogner? He used to help run the NYC races, and he & I used to have these conversations all the time. Like myself, he *wanted* the users to give feedback, to question things. He & I both think it's healthy.

At the end of the day, I'm not in any position to say who should charge what for a race. But I will say this. As soon as we resort to using Wall Street principles to justify the cost of our races, we've completely lost the soul of our sport.

As a side note, some of you may notice that I am not registered for the race this year. This is not a political statement on the cost of the race. Our kids are on spring break that week and we will be in Florida make happy times with Mickey & Company. I have always had a great time at the race, and will be sad to miss it. If we weren't going to be in the Sunshine State, I would have happily paid my $75 to watch Utah kick Roger's ass this year. Sorry, couldn't resist :p
 
cms08753 said:
i think eabods is saying that if we the racers don't pay attention mtb races could end up being priced outside of the racers range. akin to escalation of prices for tickets to concerts and sporting events. it is possible that races become only for the affluent or the gentlemen social type racer.
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Well that's not an argument he ever made.

He was basically just saying "it's more than I want to spend. How dare they make money."

You make a point that is worth considering. However, I don't think this is a huge concern for mtbing. There's just not a big enough market.

The market for big concerts the demand is huuuuge, so it's easy to price out the little guy. But for smaller acts, the price is still very reasonable (eg, $15-$30).

I think the same will apply for mtb races. If they start charging way too much, many more people will decide it's too much and simply not go. In the case of mtbing I really don't think there is a huge "gentleman social type racer" big enough (or any at all) to fill the gap if the hardcore folks are out priced. In other words, if promotors raise prices they will simply see less people sign up.
 
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I followed up on eabods original remark by also expressing a preference for a higher miles/dollar ratio. I don't have a problem with promoters making money at all. I just choose to do races that interest me with the right cost constraints.
 
mr.chainsaw said:
He did. Just not in those words. Standing up to the promoters was mentioned a few pages back.
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He wanted to "stand up to the promoters" since he thought the price was too high (which I still disagree with) and since it apparently offends him that promoters can make a buck (which I also still disagree with).

I understand the concerns expressed by norm and cms087## about losing the grassroots nature of mtb racing but just don't think it will go there. Reason: simple....mtb racing is just not that popular. It really isn't. It's not "tough mudder" or sprint triathlons, or other such events where "the masses" show up and the hard core racers could be priced out if the promotors decide to price gouge (knowing that the "masses" will still show up and line their pockets.). Where are the "masses" lining up for mtb races? It's a pretty small community....as we all know. And rising prices on mtb races certainly will not cause the masses to miracously appear.
 
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A $20 increase on a $55 charge is closer to a 36%+ increase... Just say in'... :) Either way, my guess: if you divide the profit by the man hours to put the race on these guys are making less per hour than 90% of those in the race... That would still be true if they increased another $20 next year or 26%+... :D
 
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