The 2017 "I'm a bike racer so I'm going to complain about everything" thread

Gran Fondo data point.

A half hour ago I was offered someone's spot, they registered, can't make it, I'd only have to pay a transfer fee.

Transfer fee is $50 or $75 (I think based on length). Registration already paid was something like $150.

My thoughts again:
-Big events can pull more money. Like SSaP may be a bit much, but OK. $150+ for the Gran Fondo when other century rides are $35? Ironman is wicked expensive, I think it's close to 1k nowadays. But that's a huge race, and a huge goal/part of your life leading up to the race.
-Race series where each race is expensive can hurt as it just adds up.

I'm actually curious to the cost of Shenandoah. I know Jimmy paid $200 but I don't know if that's a last minute thing. Gran Fondo starts at high-priced for registering 9 months early, moves up to absurd pricing, then stupid pricing, then insane pricing and finally $210 fuck you day of pricing.

Maybe people will only pay $60 for Stewart but Shenandoah can get $200 out of people. Good for them. Like Norm's example of the Guns & Roses tickets, they're absurd but probably will sell out, so they're not hurt by me not buying a ticket.
 
Those 100 mile races are a huge production. Kind of in its own world. It's pretty much a weekend event and usually covers two meals, camping and 5-6 stocked different aid stations. Marking 100 miles, granted it isn't marked like @UtahJoe and is rather light, is a huge task. Totally different than cross race setup/teardown

It's gotta be twice the manpower at least. Stewart at 6 hours was half the day. Imagine going for ANOTHER 6 hours, no way it's the same volunteers. EMT costs higher, you need to give volunteers better food than soggy sandwiches if they're going to return, probably higher priced permits, possibly cops or forestry personel. And yeah I have to assume they're providing way more food, breakfast, snacks and post-race.

I have to say that the organized road rides are crazy well stocked at aid stations. From fancy pastries to gu-packets to beef jerky to whatever. TONS of volunteers. It really helps on those all-day non-race efforts to chill out at an aid station with something better than some crappy gatorade talking to people from wherever. I'd say that doesn't work in races but the beer tent at SSaP may prove me wrong. But if anything I found the cheaper road rides better than the Gran Fondos, with the exception of the NJ Gran Fondo aid stations. But their after-ride prison food sucks for the money.
 
Shenandoah 100. For my $210, I got camping for 3 days, hot showers, bunch of food, pint glass and I think we were supposed to get tech shirts but I never picked mine up. Got personal service at aid stations. "Would you like some lube for your chain. Water for your bottles"? By the time I got back from taking a piss my bottles were filled and bike ready to roll. A police officer was out there in the streets directing traffic. A person at every jeep road corner making sure I don't miss a turn.
 
Insurance is about $5 a racer regardless of race distance. 1 mile. 100 miles. Both $5 a pop.
 
What was HOH this year? $75 or maybe $90?
It used to be $35 with better food. I still
Paid it because it a good event and promoter and local and all that.

Gran Fondo NJ is a stupid price, the Bicycling Classic is $100 and I thought you got a jersey, which you don't. I get support vehicle and cops and stuff but the profit margin has to be on the high side. It also doesn't help that people pay $50 to do a run where they dump washable paint on you, or OOOOOH, I can run in the dark and they spray florscent paint on me AND turn on black lights, sign me the F up! Experiences!

In any case, prices will go with what the market will allow, so as long as people keep paying, it gunna keep inflating.
 
woo wee did this convo blow up!

There is something to say about events that really put a lot into production. the SSaP example is a classic. You get killer bang for your buck with the afterparty plus a 2+ hour race for most.

I've poured half of my 20's into racing full CX schedules and it's hard to feel comfortable paying $45 for a local event. I go back to Gloucester. For $51 I get a course by the sea, deep field with an expo and internationally sanctioned racing.

For $45 at Whirlybird I get a grassy F1 course behind a college with 12 other dudes to race.

There is a disparity in the value. Payouts "draw the fields" but the fields aren't deep to start with. Sure I'll never win money at Gloucester, but that's not the point. I'm not racing to win money, I'm racing for the experience. I feel bad for the guy that finishes 8th and paid $45 bucks which let 7th place race for half price.

Value add event - Town hall - $30 for 60 minutes of racing - food, flush toilettes, live music $300 / 5 deep and it drew 3 more people than Whirlybird last year.

Maybe local racing is just gambling on yourself where Whirlybird is considered high stakes.
 
woo wee did this convo blow up!

snip...

its a good one tho - interesting to hear the perspectives. I'm in the @stb222 camp where i'm supporting the local stuff (although he could actually win
something if inclined) -

fixating on a $10 difference for a race that either requires leaving the house at 2am, or renting a hotel room (or both), while riding a $$$ bike, which is going to cost $
to repair after the race - might not move the needle a whole lot when pulling up to 1000'. The @pearl/@mandi spreadsheet was a good one, and he/she were working
the budget hard.

trying to win the series would def suck you in - "must race" -
Wanting to return to a venue because of the vibe/field/food etc...priceless.

----

on the flip side, we just had the discussion on pay-per-view vs going to the mayweather fight. outrageous ticket prices to attend.
but probably wouldn't go alone, and it would be part of something bigger (like renting a tux, taking a limo, visiting the love ranch.)
times like this are where some of the great stories of one's life come from. even if you can't really tell anyone. 😀

---

ps -
economics 101. if you sell out, and got good feedback, raise the price.
marketing 101. if you got crappy feedback, better take it to heart, and do something about it to make it right. (ie course marking issues)
 
I was reading through these posts during a teleconference this morning (being the "SME" on someone else's teleconference is my favorite way to waste lots of time at work.) Anyway, I'm a little surprised that the notion of personal utility hasn't really come up. There's been quite a few comments on what you get for your registration fee, and almost all of those are service-based. But those values exist only in the context of the event itself. For example, at Shen you get stocked aid stations, free food afterward, police protection at intersections, etc. - beyond the context of being at the race, there is no unique utility to those things: you'd spend money to eat that day anyway and you wouldn't need to be on the road to require protection without being in the race. Maybe the shirt you get is a unique value that can only come from the race itself, but even that is not entirely true (you can get a shirt cheaper on your own: the only unique value of that specific shirt is that it tells anyone who sees you wearing it that you did the race.) So it seems that arguing from the point of what you actually get for your money is kind of incomplete here: it's missing the intrinsic value of the activity itself that (probably) brought most of us to this sport in the first place. Instead of asking if the total fee is too high or too low, perhaps the first question should be "what is the cost you are willing to pay to do this if you weren't guaranteed anything tangible for it in return?" To go back to the original post: if it seems high at $45, what is the value you would place on the experience alone independent of any swag, etc.? That may sound like splitting hairs since, net-of-net, the total cost is still high enough to give you concern. But I think there is (intangible! 😀) value in approaching it this way: let's say you answer that question with "$25". So your issue is then really $20, not $45. You can ask yourself what you would do to add personal utility (happiness, self-fulfillment, accomplishment - however you want to define it) during the time you'd otherwise be racing that would either equal the personal utility you gain from the event and save you that $20 OR would increase your personal utility at its own cost. If you can't come up with anything, then it kind of seems like perhaps you've under-estimated the value of the event to yourself and $45 may even be a bargain.

It may seem overly-analytical to think this way, but in all honesty this is actually how I decide where and when to do events anymore. I've had this conversation with my wife a few times over the last couple of years: as much as I love to ride with a number on my bike, there are definitely parts of it I loathe. I always hate the run-up to events. I like to travel but I hate to travel for racing because the days beforehand are lost days to me: getting settled in to a hotel or getting up early to drive to an event is horrible because I've got the one-two punch of anticipation and logistics to worry about, and I hate that. And on top of that, since I typically use vacation days to travel, I also have to face the fact that I am doing a thing I hate with limited time off! So when I decide where and when to race, those costs have to be part of my thought process. And my way of balancing that is that I almost always think in terms of what it'll cost me if I don't go. Shen is a great example: I get there two days early and basically lose two days of my life because I have to be careful what I do and how much rest I get because I know it's going to be a challenge and the lingering anticipation of suffering is always in my head. The only day I really enjoy is the race day itself. The moment they say "Go" all of the anticipation stuff is instantly gone. I love it and I don't want to miss it because I want the experience of the actual ride. And because of that, I'm willing to not only pay the fee regardless of what it is (BTW, @Santapez - the pricing is staggered over time: if you can commit early in the year, I think it only costs $150 and then goes up every few months from there) but I'm also willing to pay the time cost of wasting two days out there (and even that is a choice: I drive down two days early because I've done it one day early in the past and it was too much of a crunch.)

So, anyway, just another way to think about the real cost of race fees. I know it doesn't address the question of why promoters charge what they do, but I think this kind of thought process may be helpful in determining whether or not you personally are willing to accept those costs.
 
"Perspective" is definitely a consideration. Being mainly a gravity racer, I haven't seen $40 registration fees in a long, long time. Usually $100 or more and may or may not include the lift tickets. And that doesn't include travel costs (many of the races I do require overnight stays from Fri-Sun). DH racing is expensive, which is probably why not many of us are doing it. I actually took a break this year, but plan to do more next year. All for a 4 min race run. But that intensity is what I enjoy. More than XC racing. More than enduro racing too. After a year off to recharge, I can't wait to start training for 2018.
 
Gran Fondo data point.

A half hour ago I was offered someone's spot, they registered, can't make it, I'd only have to pay a transfer fee.

Transfer fee is $50 or $75 (I think based on length). Registration already paid was something like $150.

FYI @Santapez . Here are the transfer details for Gran Fondo NJ:

"The entry fee is non-refundable and there are no deferrals. However, you can transfer your registration to another person at any time prior to packet pick-up. You are responsible for finding the other rider - the recipient must register through Eventbrite.com.

There is a $40 transfer fee to cover the administrative costs of the transfer ($50 after August 26th, $55 after online registration closes). All transfers must be processed through Eventbrite.com or at Packet Pick-up.

On-line execution of transfers closes on September 2nd, 2017. Any transfers after that date must be executed during packet pick-up for a fee of $55.00."
 
FYI @SantapezOn-line execution of transfers closes on September 2nd, 2017. Any transfers after that date must be executed during packet pick-up for a fee of $55.00."

I appreciate the info.

$55. That's about what I'd expect for a ride for race-day registration. But hey, if they can sell it, I have no real problem with it, I don't have to pay it.

It turns out the person who can't make it and was looking to transfer is a friend, one that @MissJR coached in a couch-to-breve program to get beginner riders ready for the Gran Fondo. I just want to go pick up the registration so she can get the pint glass and any other schwag she already spent ~$150 on to give to her.
 
Charm City 2/3 and Cat 4 and U19 combined 11:00AM race 135 person field limit reached, reg closed.

DISCUSS!

I find it odd they eliminated the 4/5 'C' race in lieu of a Cat 5 'D' race and a 2/3/4 Separate podiums 'B' race. I would like to have seen a combined 4/5 'C' race with separate podiums and a 2/3/4 'B' race in the old format.

The fields are filled and closed for the 11:00AM race with the numbers as follows:
2/3: 38 entries
cat 4:78 entries
U19 men:19 entries (yeah they are racing at the same time too)

You're going to have sub 300 point UCI vets like @keithgarrison racing at the same time as Cat 4 novices.

eeeek.

I'll be racing UCI , but this is too interesting for me to not discuss.
 
I heard the chatter about this yesterday. Sounds dumb. No Cat 4 is ever going to beat a Cat 2. Heck for that matter, they won't have the chance to make up enough time starting 17 rows deep.

From bikereg: "Cat 2/3 men(3's scored separate), Cat 4 men. U19 boys" So basically they're running 4 races separately on the course at the same time. There's gotta be a rule against that.

This marks 2 of 4 of the US Cup races that are doing asinine fields/times.
 
Years ago before I was eligible to race Masters, my answer was to reduce the number of masters fields. Why have two races (2/3/4 and M35+ or M40+) with essentially the same lap times occupying two very valuable race slots? The response back then was, "when you are a Masters' racer you'll understand".

I'm 100% a masters guy now and I still don't understand.

The answer is simple for these big draw C1 races: Forget about age group races for adults. Have a cat Pro/1 race, a Cat 2 race, a Cat 3 race, a Cat 4 race and Cat 5 race. Radical thinking, I know. if a few Masters racers feel strongly about standing atop a podium every race (hint: they do) then have a separate M40+ podium within the race.
 
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