Speed? Efficiency? Cadence?

rosceaux

rosceaux

Well-Known Member
I only started riding 5 years ago, when I was 52. I spent three years trail riding on my Big Honzo and loving it. Two years ago, I got into cyclocross and really began to train. I now own a Trek Crockett (professionally fitted) for cross, and an El Mariachi set up as single speed. This is preface to my question:

Despite feeling like I'm flying when racing Cross (I did 5th Street Cross five times this year), I am still at the back of the pack. When training on the Crockett I pay attention to Heart Rate (HR) and cadence. I tend to keep my road cadence 100-105. I've done some pedaling drills so that I can turn the cranks at 115 without bouncing or missing parts of the stroke, so I've felt that this was a reasonable cadence for me. I few weeks ago, just to mix things up, I took the Mariachi out on the road for a 2+ hour ride. I expected to be much slower on the single speed. While maintaining the same HR Zone, my average mph was more than 15% faster on the same course. It wasn't super-hilly, but there were places when I got down to a cadence in the low 60s to maintain HR Zone and there were times when I was totally spun out. Pretty fair for a single speed setup. My average SS cadence was 8 rpm slower on the Mariachi, but my average speed was much faster.

I figured that for once- I'd take the Mariachi to ride Cross. Same course, same conditions, but this time SS, wider tires, and with a heavier bike. My overall mph jumped from 10.3 on my cross bike to 10.9 on the Mariachi. And I beat people that I hadn't beaten in any previous races. And is was fun as all hell.

So... the questions are: Why would a heavier SS bike be faster for me than a cross bike? I ride the cross bike about 10X more frequently when training, it is set up well, it is lighter, has gears, and I'm using cross-specific tires. Could it be that I get more power at a lower cadence? Could it be that there's something about the geometry that just fits me better? Is there something that I should change about my training on either bike (or training in general) to maximize speed for next season? [I reached a higher max mph on the cross bike] If it was just in the cross race I might chalk it up to balance or center of gravity, but given the same performance on the road I have to think that its something else. I just don't know what.

Any insight would be appreciated
 
Power is the metric you need to train with. My guess is yes you were being forced into outputting a higher power during that race.

HR is very flawed as a training metric. Had too much caffeine? Your heart rate is jacked. Bad sleep last night? Yep same deal. Then there's the lag of heart rate making intervals virtually impossible. Cadence isn't valuable either...let it fall where it naturally falls (without grinding). 80-105 is normal.
 
If you had power meters on each bike it would easier to compare efforts.

But since you don’t: there’s no right or wrong cadence as everyone is different, but 100 plus cadence on the road is on the higher side for an average. You may have a habit of spinning fast, and cross is mostly accelerating out of corners, so you may have a habit of under gearing yourself. You want to be on the power immediately after getting through a corner, so you may be spinning up each time and losing small moments when you should be putting torque down right away.
 
Jmann said:
You may have a habit of spinning fast, and cross is mostly accelerating out of corners, so you may have a habit of under gearing yourself.
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This is my thought as well. Possibly too spinny, particularly on a course with a lot of 180s. But that really doesn’t explain the difference on the road, borne out on multiple occasion.

stb222 said:
Is your cross bike geared or ss?
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Geared. I’m in the smaller chainring in races, but I run through the gears.

Thanks for the input
 
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Power meter would help a lot here. And if you wanted to really geek out, Power Meter and AXS so you can really see what's going on. The file below is from yesterday's ride on my Fat Bike with XX1 Eagle.

Screenshot_20211121-130559_Chrome.jpg
 
I'll second what others have said about HR. It's not going to be that helpful in training. Using a power meter is better for training, but that requires knowing about ftp, and doing a test.

It sounds like you are placing too much emphasis on cadence. Working with a power meter is about hitting numbers, anyway you can, high cadence or low.

On a SS you make that gear work, uphill/downhill/flats. It forces you to work harder, use more power. A beginner racer using gears may think he is working hard, however when you get tired you shift gears for relief. There is no relief on a SS.

Also, you may be more comfortable on a SS then CX bike. I will say however that some courses favor a mtb, if you only raced the same course 5x, without trying the mtb on other courses it's tough to say for sure what's going on here.

In any case, you need to improve fitness(sustained power output) to get better at racing. Intervals, hill repeats, microbursts...

Cheers
 
The difference in what you’re seeing is the SS to gear thing that other people had mentioned. However if you know how to use gears they’re always going to be faster. Keep in mind a couple things, cadence doesn’t play in to the equation for across very much because it’s such a short heavy effort, that is more for efficiency overall. Cadence has made the biggest difference in my road riding.
Also all these guys trained with HR before power was even a thing so it’s not quite fair to say that it has no value, it has value if it’s the only thing you’re using.
Since we’re right on the verge of winter for the next 3-4 months just stay seated all the time climbing especially and build that strength up . Do that for the winter and then worry about all this training stuff
 
At the end of a.race are you waiting for a bit for your hr to recover? Or does it take 3 days before you can walk normally?

Somewhere in there is your answer. Turning yourself inside out for 40 minutes, should spend it all.

Did you race beast cross today?
 
cassinonorth said:
Power is the metric you need to train with. My guess is yes you were being forced into outputting a higher power during that race.

HR is very flawed as a training metric. Had too much caffeine? Your heart rate is jacked. Bad sleep last night? Yep same deal. Then there's the lag of heart rate making intervals virtually impossible. Cadence isn't valuable either...let it fall where it naturally falls (without grinding). 80-105 is normal.
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Power without the mention of weight training 😳


There is plenty of work that can be done with cadence and hr in conjunction with power. Pitching power as a catchall is a good start but someone trains long enough one discovers that it isnt about just one metric.

Power can drive someone to over train without proper monitoring. Example... the forever moving threshold number.
 
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