Races...the pet peeves and the things that keep you coming back for more.

Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
First off, this thread is meant to highlight the good and bad points of races. Not to badmouth them or hold them on a pedestal but to maybe help some promoters improve things to potentially draw larger crowds and get more people racing. I'll start below with a few of my noteables as I have done a variety of different races.
Good stuff---Well run events on well marked courses. Fun courses as well as challenging courses. Varied terrain and elevation so one course doesn't suit one type of rider. Example-LewMo suits the roadie climber. Stewart suit the TT road racer. Ringwood suits the tech dudes. Three races I feel suit the largest variety are Mooch, Port Jervis and Kittatinny. Next...nice medals, trophies or swag when you pay a premium to race. If it's a $15 entry fee a 20 cent medal is fine. If you pay $65 it should be authentic and original. Beer and food. Racers love these things at the end of a long race. Kid's course/race. Hecklers. The thing I love most though are good pictures and results/podiums in a timely manner.
Bad stuff---Too many classes. I see so many races not getting enough racers yet they have 20-30 classes. This is fine for a mass start event but SUCKS for small races with individual starts. Maybe we need participation awards. Some races where I like to see my overall position despite racing SS it's so tough because you need to pick out the top ten from 20 different classes. Swag is great, cheap/junk/poor fitting swag is not. Poorly marked courses. Poor promoter interest or a promoter more interested in $$$. Short XC races IMO Cat 1 should be no less than 1:45 for the winners. This is the whole objective of Cat 1 and pro. To train, improve fitness and then leave it all on the table. Women need equal payout to men. Sure, there are more men racers now but $ would attract more women racers, no? Courses that use the same trail as a connector need to be very well marked. If you host a race trim back the briar bushes, poison ivy and grass. Challenging does not have to mean dangerous. If you advertise a 4 hr endurance race it shouldn't end under 4 hours. That's misleading.
This is not finger pointing but my attempt at constructive criticism. I know a few promoters that get offended easily. Not my intent to insult. We have now hosted a race with my team and looking to do more. I am interested in others feedback as well.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Sorry bru, I’m just a dumb blue collar guy.

i kinda think of you as a metal whisperer with savant market side gig.....
--

i'll provide my trying not to DFL participator POV at some point. But interesting thread topic -
 
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jeffstick

JORBA: Waywayanda
JORBA.ORG
As a promoter I'm actually interested in hearing what does bring people back for more and what keeps them from coming back again. It really is the only way to make changes that keep a race/event fresh. This can be done without making it sound all negative and racers should keep in mind the venue itself as to the type of terrain.

If you don't like technical riding then you should not come to a place like Wawayanda or Allamuchy and then complain it's too technical. Likewise you should not go to a place like Lewis Morris and complain it's not technical enough. A racer should prepare themselves both physically and mentally for any type of venue and if your goal is to win a series then be prepared for any type of terrain.

As far as prizing goes this all depends on what the different promoters have with regard to sponsors and also their own individual expenses for a race. This varies by venue and agreements with landowners.

I am with you on the classes, less classes=better competition.
 

jShort

2018 Fantasy Football Toilet Bowl Lead Technician
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I preface this by saying I'm a cat 1 XC guy who's been racing about 10 years. Mostly H2H and MASS. Some other stuff too. I train specifically for these types of races. I am probably not going to add much in the way of attracting new racers....

For me, I don't care about the course too much. 90% of the time, I know what I'm going to get when I sign up.

A gpx file of the course at least a week in advance is super appreciated.

I want good competition. Bigger classes would be great. I already race in the 15-45 so I'm not sure how much wider an age group it can be. I would be fine racing all cat 1 men in 1 big group.

I don't care about swag or cash. I do this for the satisfaction, not to win prizes.

I like photographers.

I need accurate scoring and appreciate quick results.

I need very well marked trails. When I'm in the red zone and seeing spots, sometimes those little markers are hard to see. I have gone off course before and it kills the day and all the prep you did for it. This is a huge one and one that would make me think of skipping the race going forward.

For the H2H races, I think the time to finish then has been fine. 90-105 minutes for the winner is perfect. This is just my opinion, as I said I train for these kind of races.

I do like the idea of a leaders jersey for a series.

And I also don't care about a food vendor or beer. I don't really want a beer after a race. I like to bring my recovery drink/ meal. This may be something which I am in the minority with.
 

clarkenstein

JORBA Board Member/Chapter Leader
JORBA.ORG
I did races here and there years ago. Never really did well, was always pack fodder. I think I am the demographic you are looking for.

Why don’t I come back? A variety of reasons.

The first: Paying a lot of money to ride incredibly crowded trails that I can normally ride for free with no one on them. How can a promoter overcome this one? I’m not sure.

The second: there seem to be a ton of races. Not sure which one to pick. And nothing seems to be in central jersey. I don’t want races to be something that tears me away from my family for entire days. I want it to be something I can do for a morning or to mid-afternoon. If one or two were closer and shorter I would do it. I sit on the fence with cross, Hippocross is probably going to be what gets me out to line up. Close(r), short and looks fun.

The third: I want the race to at least make it appear like it’s doing something for the sport other than be a one shot event that comes and goes. Is a portion of funds going to NICA or JORBA or will a donation be made to the park? Will a promoter actually care about the trails after a race or will they set something up and let volunteers clean up the mess after? I have a viewpoint that promoters come in, race happens no matter what, and trails (sometimes) get wrecked. I know “the park let us do it” excuse but honestly, F that noise. It’s a poor excuse.

The races I remember as being the most fun are two totally opposite events. One was an 12 hour endurance race (most laps wins) and the other was an enduro format. One was a trail wrecking disaster (and none of what I mentioned when it comes to trail love). The enduro race took forever and a day. I was at a different point in my life then and could take all day and was unfortunately looking the other way when it came to parks. I’m far from a trail nazi but when I see races go off (online) with questionable trail conditions it gives me an e-wedgie.

I loved the Mountain Man but running longer distances is out for me due to hips and knees that are f-d up. But that is a fun race. Happens the same time every year, same venue, band is playing (usually) and you know what you are getting into. I heard that attendance was way down, probably due to lack of promotion.

Not sure how to recap this.
 

Davis1451

Member
I plan on racing some of the events H2H in 2019 and from the cheap seats as someone new to the area I had a couple of observations. I assume that H2H is a grassroots league of MTB racing with each race being done by an independent promoter. If so, it is a model that I am familiar with after being a race promoter from Missouri with the UFD (www.unitedindirt.com). I really look forward to just being a participate next year with not having to worry about logistics/volunteers/paperwork and the winter months tracking down the latest land manager for permits and renewing USAC RD License/Permits. Unless the local RD really screws the pooch, I won't be one bitching. But for the local RDs I can share the basic process in the Midwest:

-November: End of the Year Banquet for the top three Series placers in each division. Each promoter kicked in a dollar per racer up to $200 max for the end of the year event. My Co-Director owned a LBS with most of his displays on wheels so we could clear most of this store floor space along with a large screen TV mount high up for race videos/pictures from the year. We would bargain/barter/blackmail other people/businesses for tables/chair rental, beer, and food. Usually one of the RDs would coordinate this event (usually myself and LBS owner). It was actually a fun event because we would decorate the shop after closing early for the event with left over course tape, tires, cones, and award displays on the table.

-December/January: All the RDs would meet together in person for one night at a local microbrew and review the year and direction to go. The rest of the time communication through various e-mail chains. This time would be spent hashing out ideas and generally fighting quietly with each other over what categories to have across the series (less groups vs. more groups), length of races, standardizing timing/results, expansion of Juniors racing. Usually a lot of energy/internal bitching would be spent on this with the usual result of everyone just agreeing to roll with the prior year categories. There would be some headway in agreeing to follow the same basic payout process with the Cat 1. Plus volunteers would be picked/coerced into handling series functions such as the awards banquet, which poor soul keeps the running points totals for the series.

-February: Renew Permits with land managers, get event insurance, renew USAC RD license/permits. Start being nice to people to develop a pool of volunteers. Seriously, volunteers really make races happen. It is usually family, friends, MTB race teammates, and outdoor fans. It takes a lot prep the trail, mark the race course, course registration, and keep the USAC Official happy. Then break it all down right after the race in about 2 hours. Usually the volunteers do it for a t-shirt, some beer, a post race meal at a local place, and a race entry comped at one of our other events. The 2017 XTERRA St. Louis (off road tri) we had a thunderstorm roll through with 100 MPH wind gusts on a Friday. We were able to get 8 guys (3 with chainsaws) to cut up downed trees, clear trail and generally reroute/mark half the course on Saturday for the Sunday race. No way that race happened without the volunteers going beyond with that race drawing from 10 other states.

-Winter/Spring: Market the race while the area's 5 or 6 grouches post about how race X or race director X sucks and how the course is too hard/not hard enough and we should have $1,000 payouts. Every market has them, while the other 100-200 racers that show up, don't care to post. They are too busy riding. Most RDs ride/race and have a network of people they trust for feedback, but usually the RDs know their events strengths/weaknesses and nothing sucks more than knowing you screwed up and having 10 people remind you publicly. This when we post maps of the race course for people to train on during the year.

-Spring: RDs ride and coordinate with the local GORC trail marshal (Missouri version of JORBA). GORC would attempt to coordinate yearly TM days a few weeks ahead of the race. Twice I was able to get GORC assistance with getting permission with the land managers and had them assist with building small connectors to be able to enhance the race course. This only occurs because members of our race team would show up at some of the other TMs. Trails don't build themselves and the horseback riders in Missouri sure as hell aren't going lift a Pulaski. I estimate that the months leading up to the race, I would have at least 3 or more full days of course prep with trimming, grooming, grass cutting for passing lanes, and sometimes rerouting. Sometimes alone; other times with a couple of buddies or GORC Trail Elves with chain saws. It is one of the unseen labors of putting on a race. I love putting on an event, but if I never ever see Creve Couer Park again in my life I will be fine after looking at every rock/root/corner from how this will look at race speed along with trying to find the right balance with minimizing the danger of a serious injury with not making it a cyclocross track.

-Day before race day. Walk course with a crew to tape up/mark the turns at the end of the day right before the park closes so as to not interfere with park users.

-5:30 am Race Day: Leave home. Bike course as the sun is coming up to make sure local youths didn't mess with course markings. One year a local St. Louis race had some jokers reroute the course to lead right off a 50 foot cliff. Nobody got hurt luckily on that one. Coordinate the race. I won't even describe this beyond just stating that you assume something will happen. A power cord will get unplugged for the timing, a racer will crash in a tricky part of the course and you will to shut down for paramedics, the list goes on. 1,001 questions/decisions will occur.

-End of Race: Walk/Bike the entire course to pull all markings down. We would start with three crews. One start at the finish and go backwards, one at the start and goes through the course, and the third crew breaks down/clean start/finish area. Typically two hours of work. Pro-Tip: Regardless of how you feel about E-Bikes, we would use an E-Bike that a LBS had as Demo to use during the race. It really helped with getting to points of the course to setup/break down, plus relieve volunteers that were being course marshals. Post race beers and burritos at a local spot with volunteers (picked up by the RDs).

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Most of the RDs in Missouri really view it as really a big MTB party to be hosted with 150+ of our MTB buddies. If your are being an RD to make some side money, I can't help you. I've run the budgets and know the margins. There really is better ways to spend your time. Our main goals were three fold: Bring the LBS some good publicity, host a fun party that involved dirty bikers who would want to come back again, and pull enough race fees to be able to cover expenses to be able to do it the next year. I was lucky in that it was myself and guy that owned a bike shop putting on the races. Someone that I have run and rode bikes with for at least 25 years, so we had a level of communication, trust and understanding that most crews don't have. I really don't see how some races only have one director running it all. There is no way it can be done with one person. At the end of the day we had some fun and if there was anything left over after expenses paid, some would be invested back into course supplies and the rest into bike parts.

If there was anything I could say to racers. It is to be patient with some events. It takes a few years to really get the hang of it, making the right connections with groups/organizations, and develop the volunteer army needed.

RDs. The only thing I have to say is something some of you already know. Get a Beer Sponsor. Always get a beer sponsor. It makes the day go better and racers happier. (And some soda/water for the Juniors).
 
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