NYNJTC trifold in the office at WaWay

[Kaleidopete]

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I never met a cranky NYNJTC member while biking, or otherwise.
I often run into Allen from the NYNJTC because he bird watches at Wayway and also does trail work.
We are very friendly and talk about birds and trails and upcoming trail projects.
Years ago I remember calling Peter at the NYNJTC to ask about the much needed bridge at Longpond
Ironworks. His reply was "we're working on it this weekend! want to volunteer to help?" What could I
say! Sure, I'll be there and I was, for two days in the rain, but we got it done. I even rode my bike in wearing a Jorba shirt.
Fun times and good stories. Nice to work together!

 

[KenS]

Does VMBA have a free tier?

I asked the Q before. Why isn’t every Nica kid automatically a member?
Why doesn’t a free membership come with the purchase of a mountain bike?

i know the answer, in that each membership has a cost. But is that a marketing cost vs operating cost? Once in maybe they stay in? And convert to a paying member?

once again, this is the type of trial I’d like to run and report on, but it is a significant investment of time which I don’t have right now. And most likely others don’t have. Should a consultant be hired? Even that is time consuming. Are there solid case studies to fall back on?

more blue skying, but it should be somewhat in range

No, VMBA does not, nor do any of the major orgs in the US. It isn't solely cost which limits an organization from providing free memberships, but it is a factor. We explored free memberships several times over the years, through bicycle sales and student initiatives. The most compelling factor was again, insurance. Cost (again) factors here, as our rate is largely based on total chapters and membership. The sticking point though is how we define a "covered" person, and that definition includes paid membership. This is where we considered a nominal fee, but break-even analysis kicked in here and it is not something we were able to do with the numbers we had at the time.

tl:dr - It is mostly cost, but also how the insurance provider defines a covered person.

 

[KenS]

I’ll be honest here, I have been a JORBA member for however long and I have asked many a time “where does my money go”? Tools and other things for TM, that is great and I am grateful for having received some of those but after that...I honestly don’t know.
Paying for the high bridge trails is great too but services we need 10 high bridges to be like “oh wow, Jorba doing something here”
A free coupon doesn’t do anything but artificially bump up numbers. I know numbers are used to help sell services but still.

I get the "what have you done for me lately" sentiment, but forgive me if I don't sympathize. You do plenty of TM and know that trails don't build themselves, nor do they advocate our position with land managers. We've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on "tools and other things for TM" and High Bridge is the first of it's kind in our state. To do that 10 more times requires 10 times the volunteer effort and 10 times the cash. How do you propose we accomplish that to "oh wow" you? Since you mentioned your JORBA membership btw, you've been a member 6 total years since we opened membership in 2007. Thank you for supporting the effort. (not a dig, truly appreciative)

Nonprofits gain members through their mission, asking those who sympathize with it to support them. How they allocate funds is a key element in retaining members, along with attainment of the mission. JORBA is nearly 100% member funded, and has 100% volunteer staff. Spending is as good as it gets in the nonprofit space. Attaining the mission (advocate, educate, conserve) is also on point, but clearly neither is communicated well to the members and general public. How do we do better? Paid staff, more volunteers, and more members to fund it all.

 

[KenS]

I think it is hard to compare as NJ does not have the same percentage of outdoor people as Vermont does. Nor does it have the MTB tourism. That being said, I do think NJ trails are worthy of tourism. However, there is more to tourism than good trails.

Well said, and our state, being so paved over and crowded, will never embrace outdoor tourism at the scale of VT. You are likely correct regarding percentage of folks participating in outdoor activity too, but that data is not easily found. Using what is available to us, Trailforks and Strava, here is a snapshot of MTB use in both states:

Trailforks:

NJ
Average Trail Rating – 74/100 with 34,616 votes
Trails 2,642
Total Distance 3,734 miles
Reports 17,720
Photos 4,844
Ridden Counter 169,395

activitytype	trails	distance	global rank	photos	reports	routes	ridelogs
Mountain Bike	2,020	1,591 mile	#24	4,659	17,692	184	141,948

VT
Avg Trail Rating – 81/100 with 50,319 votes
Trails 2,834
Total Distance 3,019 miles
Reports 28,077
Photos 3,031
Ridden Counter 375,446

activitytype	trails	distance	global rank	photos	reports	routes	ridelogs
Mountain Bike	2,062	1,387 mile	#14	2,985	27,908	177	132,888

Strava heatmap:


I think it is safe to say that we have similar amounts of people getting outside, arguably more. This is why I am presenting the disproportionate membership data between the two organizations.

 

[KenS]

I tend to agree with this myself. However, Art and I have had some recent success with our relationship with certain members of NYNJTC. I can not say that we are in the clear, because there still are some old school haters in that group that are still involved on the volunteer management level, but things have greatly improved. I also get the feeling that the paid management understands that inclusive brings more members. Art and I are supervisors for NYNJTC and this so far has strengthened the relationship between the two groups and made the relationship with the park better. It's not perfect, but much better than before. Perhaps we should push for Jorba recognition, but at this point we have not felt like rocking the boat. Perhaps the new blood will do that. By the way, our supervisor position is always open for new blood if anyone is interested. Personally, I hate having to fill out all those forms for the TC every 6 months, but we could not let this opportunity to work together pass.

You and Art have done so much to massage and improve the relationship with the TC and many other partners in and out of gov't. The TC has removed "hiking" from their mission statement thanks in large part to your efforts. You've partnered with them to improve the trail user experience in your area to a level that few of us thought possible back in the day. You are both legends in my book.

 

[KenS]

And combining these two, is there a difference in what JORBA and VMTB pays for insurance?
Maybe I’m just thinking of the KT arrangement, but doesn’t VT have dramatically lower liability exposure?

Sort of, but not really. In 2020 VMBA paid ~$22k for chapter insurance. I am not privy to their deal or carrier details, but I am sure it looks similar.

 

[Patrick]

tl:dr - It is mostly cost, but also how the insurance provider defines a covered person.

Aware from our previous discussion - and some with @Frank.
Does that stop the organization from classifying members as supporters vs "active engagement" ? perhaps a solution to the insurance cost.

And is the "free" tier actually the followers on FB, insta, and twitter?
Low cost, and path to convert to full member?

Maybe that is the starting point at the shops, with a tag on the bikes?

again - lots of ideas, not easily executed without significant effort from already overworked volunteers.

 

[KenS]

again - lots of ideas, not easily executed without significant effort from already overworked volunteers.

This, 100%.

 

[Karate Monkey]

again - lots of ideas, not easily executed without significant effort from already overworked volunteers.

This, 100%.

I get this. 100%. I work half of my time as a professional musician, and--frequently--the first words out of a "potential" clients mouth after I give my rates are, "Oh, I thought you would do it for [free] [exposure] [food] [insert non-monetary-compensation here]" or, "how about [insultingly low offer]?"

I am not beyond paying more for dues, assuming they go towards employing someone to advocate for me. Everyone who I have ever worked with in my field has said similarly, "Never work for free." I would expect no less of an advocacy organization, and frankly, would be appalled that anyone would think that someone who is already working 1-3 jobs should STOP, and meet for 3 hours with a person/group that doesn't even want to give them the time of day, and repeat it however long it takes to gain traction.

Idealism is nice, but it only goes so far.

 

[stb222]

I get the "what have you done for me lately" sentiment, but forgive me if I don't sympathize. You do plenty of TM and know that trails don't build themselves, nor do they advocate our position with land managers. We've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on "tools and other things for TM" and High Bridge is the first of it's kind in our state. To do that 10 more times requires 10 times the volunteer effort and 10 times the cash. How do you propose we accomplish that to "oh wow" you? Since you mentioned your JORBA membership btw, you've been a member 6 total years since we opened membership in 2007. Thank you for supporting the effort. (not a dig, truly appreciative)

Nonprofits gain members through their mission, asking those who sympathize with it to support them. How they allocate funds is a key element in retaining members, along with attainment of the mission. JORBA is nearly 100% member funded, and has 100% volunteer staff. Spending is as good as it gets in the nonprofit space. Attaining the mission (advocate, educate, conserve) is also on point, but clearly neither is communicated well to the members and general public. How do we do better? Paid staff, more volunteers, and more members to fund it all.

I can’t fact check that number because I can’t figure out how to log into my account. However I think maybe my account is under my old verizon account too? kmcelwain at verizon dot net. I’ll be honest, I renewed 100% because of either @Norm or @jdog asking me directly.

I don’t have the answers here, but if you can convince “us”, how do you convince people who barely ride.

 

[rick81721]

I can’t fact check that number because I can’t figure out how to log into my account. I’ll be honest, I renewed 100% because of either @Norm or @jdog asking me directly.

I don’t have the answers here, but if you can convince “us”, how do you convince people who barely ride.

Seems to me asking previous members why they are no longer members would be useful...

 

[Cassinonorth]

Is JORBA in contact with the FB NJ Mountain Biking groups at all? NJ Mountain Biking has 2700 members and Garden State Mountain Biking has 5800. Obviously those are going overlap quite a bit but if you can convert ~20% of the people on there, that just triples our membership.

I'm new to the MTB scene and this forum feels like a callback to the early internet days but many people will never post on a standalone forum like this (sorry Patrick). I was lead to JORBA through here, I rarely see it brought up on FB groups. Taking pictures and posting them there could go a long, long way IMO.

 

[KenS]

I can’t fact check that number because I can’t figure out how to log into my account. However I think maybe my account is under my old verizon account too? kmcelwain at verizon dot net. I’ll be honest, I renewed 100% because of either @Norm or @jdog asking me directly.

I don’t have the answers here, but if you can convince “us”, how do you convince people who barely ride.

No Verizon address in the database.

I assume you meant to type "If we can't convince 'us', how do you convince people who barely ride"? Honestly it would be cool if we didn't have to convince "us", if you define "us" as people who ride a lot and/or post on MTBNJ. This forum's membership represents a tiny fraction of MTB trail users, but a very large percentage of people who "get it" and "do it"; wouldn't it be great if "us" didn't need convincing and we put personalities aside to help grow a movement?

 

[KenS]

Is JORBA in contact with the FB NJ Mountain Biking groups at all? NJ Mountain Biking has 2700 members and Garden State Mountain Biking has 5800. Obviously those are going overlap quite a bit but if you can convert ~20% of the people on there, that just triples our membership.

I'm new to the MTB scene and this forum feels like a callback to the early internet days but many people will never post on a standalone forum like this (sorry Patrick). I was lead to JORBA through here, I rarely see it brought up on FB groups. Taking pictures and posting them there could go a long, long way IMO.

This is a great idea and would (should) be part of a marketing plan to develop new members. The NJ Mountain Biking group was founded by JORBA folks, or at least is administered by them. @Jason or @Norm @MissJR can you confirm? I'm not familiar with the Garden State group's admins, but I am a member. I'm curious what drove more people to the Garden State group. Content on each seems similar. Maybe they invested a bit SEO/Facebook boosting. Dunno.

 

[pooriggy]

I'm new to the MTB scene and this forum feels like a callback to the early internet days but many people will never post on a standalone forum like this (sorry Patrick). I was lead to JORBA through here, I rarely see it brought up on FB groups. Taking pictures and posting them there could go a long, long way IMO.

I have seen Jorba brought up on FB mtb groups, it gets some likes, a few positive comments but that's about it.

There seems to be little substance on FB/IG, it's basically a guick scroll through of sensationalized living. There are 4 local mtb groups that I know of on FB, they usually focus on Where's the Ride? Is This Bike Good? Check out my Cool Video. 6 Mile Sucks.

It's hard these days to promote a grass roots organization in NJ when there are so many places that people are going for info and the places they are getting info is basically Enquire Magazine.

Yes, this website is probably dated by today's internet standards but I will say that despite the banter the posts are more comprehensive if you have questions.

VT reminds me of how I grew up in the 70s in NJ. Life was simpler, we had less options when it came to recreation so we all played the same sports, sponsored by our local church parish, we all knew each other and pitched in.

I will say that NJ is really awesome when it comes to trails. We just rode Wildcat this morning, which has improved tremendously over the years. Within 45 minutes of there are at least 5 other places with incredibly awesome miles of mtb trails. There are a lot of great trail builders out there and Jorba crews getting it done.

Living in this area, how do we reach others to discuss the importance of being unified, working together towards a common goal?

 

[KenS]

I'm off to ride @ Seaview Trails but really appreciate this conversation and will continue to weigh in and learn. Once NICA season winds down and I have a minute to breathe I plan to take up the development topic with both JORBA staff/chapter leads and this forum.

Speaking of Seaview, the Atlantic County Chapter of JORBA has turned what was several miles of quad trails less than 10 years ago into 15 miles of pretty stellar single track, all with the county's blessing. This is why I volunteer with JORBA and why we've worked so hard to provide administrative & equipment support to the people willing to take on the task. We clearly need to do better "selling" stuff like this to reach a broader audience.

 

[Cassinonorth]

I have seen Jorba brought up on FB mtb groups, it gets some likes, a few positive comments but that's about it.

There seems to be little substance on FB/IG, it's basically a guick scroll through of sensationalized living. There are 4 local mtb groups that I know of on FB, they usually focus on Where's the Ride? Is This Bike Good? Check out my Cool Video. 6 Mile Sucks.

It's hard these days to promote a grass roots organization in NJ when there are so many places that people are going for info and the places they are getting info is basically Enquire Magazine.

Yes, this website is probably dated by today's internet standards but I will say that despite the banter the posts are more comprehensive if you have questions.

VT reminds me of how I grew up in the 70s in NJ. Life was simpler, we had less options when it came to recreation so we all played the same sports, sponsored by our local church parish, we all knew each other and pitched in.

I will say that NJ is really awesome when it comes to trails. We just rode Wildcat this morning, which has improved tremendously over the years. Within 45 minutes of there are at least 5 other places with incredibly awesome miles of mtb trails. There are a lot of great trail builders out there and Jorba crews getting it done.

Living in this area, how do we reach others to discuss the importance of being unified, working together towards a common goal?

I totally agree it's mostly just post your sweet Strava and go, but there's opportunity to convert even a portion of them.



For the record I love this forum, it's a wealth of knowledge on bikes and the trails alike. Long live MTBNJ.

 

[clarkenstein]

I totally agree it's mostly just post your sweet Strava and go, but there's opportunity to convert even a portion of them.

View attachment 158844

For the record I love this forum, it's a wealth of knowledge on bikes and the trails alike. Long live MTBNJ.

I’m actively posting when I get photos or info from here to FB. I think it’s a very good idea to keep spreading the news here and on FB, Twitter and Instagram.

 

[Norm]

This is a great idea and would (should) be part of a marketing plan to develop new members. The NJ Mountain Biking group was founded by JORBA folks, or at least is administered by them. @Jason or @Norm @MissJR can you confirm? I'm not familiar with the Garden State group's admins, but I am a member. I'm curious what drove more people to the Garden State group. Content on each seems similar. Maybe they invested a bit SEO/Facebook boosting. Dunno.

Yeah we own the smaller group. But I’m not allowed to push for more members until the fulfillment staff says we can handle. My goal is 2021 members by EOY.

 

[stb222]

Charge $5 for every mtbnj group ride. Goes to JORBA.