Learn me up on Crown Races

stb222 said:
2mm difference in stack.
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i'm sure i wouldn't notice it - otoh, i'm going from rigid to squish, and from 45 to 51 trail.

stb222 said:
issues with alignment.
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rather nice engineering here - the seal is not "on top" of the seat, it is around it.
when the bearing hits it, that extra 1+mm is there to allow for the "flattened" seal, rather than crush it
between fork and steerer. The bevel makes it self centering(?)

going to try that one first. will make ring-toss game for other one.
 
Hmm... I've always read races are somewhat specific to each headset. There isn't much tolerance in the interface between the race and the angular contact of the bearing.

Years ago (remember AOL classified trading groups?) I bought a set of Chris King headset tools for pressing the cups. I don't know how many times I've used them over the years... Fast forward to 2014 and I bought my Carbine 275 frame, which takes a press in tapered headset. So I ordered a new King headset as well as the appropriate pressing tools.

The tool actually came with instructions. Shocking, I know...

The hilarious part is the instructions told how to use the ring part of the tool to protect the contact part of the crown race while pounding it onto the fork steerer. I never knew that... So I had those rings for years and never used them. Doh.

PXL_20210319_132805009.jpg


Now the 1.5" ring gets used every time I install a race. Of course, the cup pressing adapters pretty much never get used anymore...
 
Patrick said:
i'm sure i wouldn't notice it - otoh, i'm going from rigid to squish, and from 45 to 51 trail.



rather nice engineering here - the seal is not "on top" of the seat, it is around it.
when the bearing hits it, that extra 1+mm is there to allow for the "flattened" seal, rather than crush it
between fork and steerer. The bevel makes it self centering(?)

going to try that one first. will make ring-toss game for other one.
Click to expand...
Yeah, didn’t think stack would be an issue. My race had this plastic piece to fill a small gap between the frame and the race, kinda similar to what that seal does. One issue I had is that it can feel tight in the stand but after riding it a bit, it will work lose. You end up having to keep the headset tighter than you should.
 
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Probably a question @Karate Monkey can answer.

Campy 45 degree vs Cane Creek 37 degree.

Is the difference on the frame angle, or on the race angle?

IE, can you switch from Campy Style to Cane Creek style as long as you change the race on the fork, and the rest of the upper top-cap pieces?
 
Patrick said:
One on the right is an exact match to the old crown race.
One on the left is ~1.5mm taller, same profile.

View attachment 154123

Maybe tonight?
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Are they both Cane Creek? The one on the right looks like a Cane Creek steel crown race without the seal, the one on the left definitely an alloy Cane Creek. The bevel on the crown race should be 36 deg and match the inner race of the bearing. Are you changing the bearing as well?
 
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Santapez said:
Probably a question @Karate Monkey can answer.

Campy 45 degree vs Cane Creek 37 degree.

Is the difference on the frame angle, or on the race angle?

IE, can you switch from Campy Style to Cane Creek style as long as you change the race on the fork, and the rest of the upper top-cap pieces?
Click to expand...
There is over a difference on the frame and race angle, like:
36-x-45-degree-stainless-steel-angular-contact-bearing-30-2mm-id-x-41mm-od?variant=1486683308037&gclid=Cj0KCQjwl9GCBhDvARIsAFunhsnbNAupbyXaXvFTUzruWk1SYiEDfmpI_as8z0MTPXd9wYCBqo6JArQaAgMVEALw_wcB
 
stb222 said:
There is over a difference on the frame and race angle, like:
36-x-45-degree-stainless-steel-angular-contact-bearing-30-2mm-id-x-41mm-od?variant=1486683308037&gclid=Cj0KCQjwl9GCBhDvARIsAFunhsnbNAupbyXaXvFTUzruWk1SYiEDfmpI_as8z0MTPXd9wYCBqo6JArQaAgMVEALw_wcB
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Not sure what you meant, but Enduro bearing come in different angles, i.e. the ones on Hope headsets are 36/45 for the upper bearing and 45/45 for the lower. Fascinating, ain't it?
 
I feel like you guys are making less sense than I do. I'm referring specifically to IS frames and their compatibility.

Are all frames beveled at 45 degrees if IS, or do frames internally change bevels depending what headset bearing mfr design they use.

If it's 45 degrees for the frame and matching on all bearings, then the inner bevel of the bearing won't matter as long as I get the matching race and other top cap pieces like the lock ring for the top bearing.

A few of my frames (Focus and Chinese direct) came with Neco headsets which seem to be 45/45. Cane Creek is 37/45.

Looking to see if I can go with Cane Creek if I swap the races and everything else. Specifically my cross bike kills the cheap bearings with the mud etc.
 
Santapez said:
I feel like you guys are making less sense than I do. I'm referring specifically to IS frames and their compatibility.

Are all frames beveled at 45 degrees if IS, or do frames internally change bevels depending what headset bearing mfr design they use.

If it's 45 degrees for the frame and matching on all bearings, then the inner bevel of the bearing won't matter as long as I get the matching race and other top cap pieces like the lock ring for the top bearing.

A few of my frames (Focus and Chinese direct) came with Neco headsets which seem to be 45/45. Cane Creek is 37/45.

Looking to see if I can go with Cane Creek if I swap the races and everything else. Specifically my cross bike kills the cheap bearings with the mud etc.
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From the Park Tool page link I posted earlier:

"The “IS” system is considered the most common. The name Integrated System is not a registered trade name. The system uses the 45-degree bearing contact in the frame. The bearings for the 1-1/8 inch steering columns use a 41mm outside diameter with a 45-degree bearing contact in the frame. The bearing may be marked “36-45.” The first number refers to the inside bearing contact with the headset race or centering cone. The second number refers to the frame contact.

The less common 36-degree angular contact standard uses a bearing for the 1-1/8 inch steering columns with a 41.5mm outside diameter. The bearings may be marked “36-36.” The IS frame standard of 36-degrees is now considered obsolete."

and

"The Campagnolo® Hiddenset (SHIS IS42) is a proprietary design, and is basically an integrated-angular contact type without cups. The frame must be compatible with this design for this headset to be used. The bearings cone races do not press into the frame. The frame has a specially machined headtube to accept the bearings. However, this standard is not interchangeable with the Integrated System described above. Adjustment is similar to a conventional threadless headset.

Steering columns may be either 1-inch or 1-1/8 inch in this standard. The bearings are a slip fit into the frame. The common 1-1/8 inch standard has a bearing outside diameter of nominally 41.8mm with a 45-degree bearing seat. Campagnolo® brand bearings use a caged ball bearing inside the bearing unit. The unit can be pulled apart to be cleaned and regreased. Some other brands use a non-serviceable bearing, which are simply replaced, not serviced."

So it would appear that all IS cups are cut at 45-degree with a 41mm outside diameter (except obsolete ones cut at 36-degree that used to have 41.5 mm outer diameter) while Campagnolo are cut at 45-degree with a 41.8mm outside diameter.

And it's 36 not 37.

Clear enough? You may have to go with Enduro bearing that as I mentioned come in different sizes, but also Cane Creek has 45x45 bearings, not in all sizes though.
s-l500.jpg



The confusion may be caused by the fact the @Patrick case revolves specifically around the inner race of the lower cup bearing.
 
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Headsets in the modern era feel like voodoo sometimes. I'm staring at a brand new in the box Nukeproof Warhead 44-56IITS headset I ordered by mistake and will probably never use.

Fortunately, the last two frames I built up were from Santa Cruz and they have good spec information online so you know what to order.
 
Santapez said:
@serviceguy That's perfect. Yes, so as long as the inside matches, I'm good to go.
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It really took the industry some strong effort to complicate that much a system made by just two bearing!

I prefer to point out the info so you can verify it yourself rather just spit out a number possibly causing you to go the wrong way, glad it worked for you. Also, I re-read my post and thought I did sound a little bit like an ass. Sorry about that, wasn't the intention. I'm getting super conscious about it now, just yesterday my wife pointed out that during a Teams work call I sounded really angry (she handed me a card that said 'calm down, you sound really pissed!')...and I thought I was just being sarcastic! Oh well...
 
serviceguy said:
Are they both Cane Creek? The one on the right looks like a Cane Creek steel crown race without the seal, the one on the left definitely an alloy Cane Creek. The bevel on the crown race should be 36 deg and match the inner race of the bearing. Are you changing the bearing as well?
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Not changing bearing.
Bevels and heights above seat look the same.
Drinking beer, watching basketball now!
 
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