Lance v USADA

1speed

Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
This is a good article. One of the things public figures don't seem to have figured out yet about the 24-hour-a-day sound byte potential of the media is that anything you say will be catalogued. The author points to Armstrong's own statement in Men's Journal about welcoming a USADA investigation and says that he should stand by that now.

Whether anyone thinks he's innocent or not (or, as most of us probably feel by now, don't care either way), one curious element of his defense strategy has been the statement that he's singled out. As the author here points out, the only thing that singles him out really is that he hasn't been charged. Operation Puerto destroyed so many careers but not Armstrong's. He's never been formerly charged until now. So to say he's being singled out rings hollow.

Personally, I don't know if he doped and I don't care. The tours he won made for some incredible viewing at times and did a lot of the industry of cycling. (I still get a chill watching him get back up after his 2003 fall and ride away from the other favorites.) I suspect he did dope because common sense arguments seem to bare it out, but I wouldn't waste any time arguing that point with anyone. If USADA proves he did dope in an era when everyone was doing it, they should just throw an asterisk on his tour victories and be done with it (seriously - who would they give the tour wins to if they take them from him? Ullrich? Ullrich was implicated in Puerto. So was Beloki. So was Basso. Vino was caught doping. In fact, I think almost everyone who shared a podium with him during his 7 victories has been implicated in doping at some point. So who would get those tours?) Just let the governing bodies admit that this mess was not only created by the riders but themselves as well -- their gross incompetence and inability to keep pace with technologies allowed doping to run rampant. Just accept that, throw asterisks around like confetti, and move the hell on. Celebrate the encouraging fact that guys like Hesjedal are winning grand tours and clearly suffering while doing it in times that actually seem human.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I think that when they (whichever body "they" is) dropped the hammer on Contador, it opened the door for this a bit more. It had gotten to the point where nearly everyone in the cycling world just wanted the Contador issue to go away, regardless if you like the guy or not. And it seemed like it was punted so often that it was just going to fade into the sunset. Then they turned the screws on him, and took his yellow jersey away.

If the evidence is there, then it's there. Everyone else who does anything great in cycling goes through this, and eventually ends up getting torched. Sometimes it's fast (Landis), sometimes it's slow (Contador), but nobody seems immune to the witch hunt. I imagine Cadel Evans will be persecuted in a year or 2 for his 2011 victory.

As a sport, why do we so routinely strive so hard to mimic daytime soap operas?
 

Maurice

New Member
No-one should say "I don't care anymore" or "they should just let it go".

The effects of doping on riders can be devastating, and too often are. Every now and then there's report of some 18 or 19 year old dying in his sleep, like it's something that "just happens". Right...

For the sake of those guys and their parents, things like this must be fully investigated. Too many "team managers" and "team doctors" telling riders to "do the right thing".
 

1speed

Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
No-one should say "I don't care anymore" or "they should just let it go".

The effects of doping on riders can be devastating, and too often are. Every now and then there's report of some 18 or 19 year old dying in his sleep, like it's something that "just happens". Right...

For the sake of those guys and their parents, things like this must be fully investigated. Too many "team managers" and "team doctors" telling riders to "do the right thing".

That's a really good point, and something I wasn't considering. I meant simply as a fan and consumer of the product on the screen in front of me, indepenednt of its cost to the athletes, doping investigations on retired athletes is not something I really care about. It's a cold view, to be sure (my brother and I were asked to leave Citizen's Bank Park at one game a few years ago for holding a up a homemade sign that read "Dancing Bears on PEDs dance better! We want homers! Let 'em do drugs!" when Barry Bonds came up to bat) but it's strictly a one-dimensional response in my role as a consumer of this as a product. I do think that the decision to dope or not is an individual thing and (as the article mentions) many lose their dream by choosing not to participate in the sometimes mandated doping that goes on within teams. I would hope that most 18 or 19 year olds would consider the possible long term effects of doing whatever is necessary now to achieve that goal and choose not to do it, but I have obviously never been at that level and don't know how hard it would be to walk away when you're so close. I do get how these kids get in this position (even more so in more lucrative sports, by the way.) And for that reason, I concede your point that this is a worthwhile effort as long as it works. Dammit, now you made me think in more than one dimension. I hate doing that.
 

Blair

Well-Known Member
I would like to see two separate races, one clean and one "do whatever you want race" to see how crazy fast these guys can get. Its the same with any sport, people don't realize the repercussions until you're dead at half the age of a regular person. Is half your life really worth it? Basketball players have leg problems, football players get concussions and blackouts, we inject steroids in horses to race, etc., etc. This trial stuff will go on forever and I'm tired of hearing about it, courts and panels and judges, and the subsequent appeals, somebody make a goddamn decision. Take the money out everything if you want to promote any common sense. (winner of the clean race gets $1 million, dirty race gets $8 million, LET"S RACE!)
 

Maurice

New Member
I can't believe they asked you to leave... What a society.

Some things touch home closer than you might think. I used to race with this guy regularly. Pretty sure he'll come back after the ban like nothing happened. There are a few local riders in this situation. Singling out, hah. Sadly this is the tip of the iceberg. Believe me.

I had a shot at going to the next level when I got out of Juniors, but lost complete interest in cycling when I learned what "needed to be done". I ended up not even looking at a bike for a good 12 years. This was in Europe, where to ride in a big team you had to justify your salary, and even carrying bottles required (requires?) some sacrifices. I know a few other racers in the exact same case.

Now I ride and race for fun, knowing that on a good day I can do better than some doped up losers.
 

TedH

Member
I was always curious as to what you had experienced in EU Maurice; thanks for sharing.

And the us system for ball/stick sports is pathetic. Why has no one ever been dq'd from the Superbowl or World Series? Because they were never tested.
 

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I think what we have here is a societal problem, and this really needs to be addressed at home. Presumably, Maurice was raised in a family where he was taught that "winning at every cost" is actually *not* ok, and when presented with the choice, he walked away. Many of us played high school football, and steroids were everywhere. After 1 year, the mindset just wasn't me. I was not nearly as good at football as Maurice is/was at cycling, but I was pretty good, and our team was pretty good. But that kind of lifestyle to "win at all costs" just doesn't interest me. Where do we learn that? At home.

In society, we seem to collectively approach these kinds of things with a "winning is everything" or "win at all costs" mentality. We also praise people with big houses and fast/expensive cars. In other words: money! Whoever has more money in society is seen as the winner. No matter that you may be bilking investors out of hard-earned money or old ladies out of their retirement funds, if you have a big house you win. When you are in grade school and high school you see this, you live it. We as a society promote it.

But then when someone does it, and gets caught, they're bad. So which is it?

Is it society's problem to police itself, or the individual's? If we value the home run more than anything in all of sports, of course people are going to cheat in an effort to hit more. Our society pays huge dollars to see home runs. If we really wanted to stop this, there would be a zero tolerance policy. What happens when someone on Wall Street gets caught laundering funds? They go to jail. Want to stop steroids in baseball? Send the fuckers to jail. Until then, it's a joke. And it will remain a joke because people want to see the long ball. And if you throw them all into jail, the best hitters will be hitting 50 home runs again in 2 years because the pitchers will be human again, playing against human hitters.

To me, this is all a dog & pony show. Either put an end to the doping with real tests and real consequences, or just stop altogether like they do in the NFL. The in between nonsense is what makes the sport of cycling look worse than it is.
 

MikeP

Well-Known Member
the sport of pro cycling is seen as a joke by non cyclists mostly because of doping and the spandex is winning many over either. I watch just about every day of the tour at work (ICU in a hospital) and try to expalin to my coworkers the tactics and teamwork....usually in NASCAR terms. Dopers will always be in one step ahead of the testers. It setrs a horrible example of the "win at all cost" mentality and it cheapens the beauty of the tour.
 

liong71er

Well-Known Member
for a "pride" peoples will do anything beyond their conciuosness to have "pride" at all cost.
and pride is root of evil..

ok carry on..
 

mattybfat

The Opinion Police
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Lance has corporate money machine that has been keeping him out of trouble and I doubt he will be found of any wrong doing. Does anyone remember what most thought of him before cancer? This is America folks and this is capitalism at it's finest. Livestrong creates millions and lance is made of Teflon.
 

Dave H

New Member
I think if your making millions in any sport you should be required to dope up. There should be some sort of risk involved. Let's see how many flames I get for that one. lol :popcorn:
 

Arwen's Mom

Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains
I am probably going to regret opening my mouth here, but am going to anyway :D

First off, I have been living under a rock and didnt realize that "doping" was so widespread in sports. Do the managers really make you feel as a team member that it is "mandatory"???!!! If so, THEY should be the ones under investigation for making their people feel that way. Shame on them.

I do NOT and never will condone the attitude that you should "win whatever the cost"

I have always taught my kids that you should do the best you can. If you win thats great, if not, but you had fun and you are still a winner. And try harder, practice more for next time. Every time you should be able to improve a little.

The fact that there is so much doping going on makes me sick and that is why I dont support professional sports.

In my humble opinion, if you need DRUGS to perform better, then you are not a true athlete, you are a doper, no better than a guy hyped up on drugs who beat up some guy and ate his face.

If you need drugs to perform better, where is the true accomplishment?

SO at 6M yesterday I rode across one of those bumpy scary bridges that I have always avoided. It was a TRUE accomplishment because I did it. Not because I took some drug that helped me to it. The only drugs I use are the ones my body produces on its own like endorphins and adrenaline. Anything else is a lie.

These guys that take drugs should all be spanked by their moms and sent to their rooms without dinner for a WEEK!
 

TeamMuddySprocket

Well-Known Member
Cycling has besn a dirty sport forever. I want lance to be clean, his triumph over cancer.. his seven tdfs are transcendent accomplishments.

He has been tested more than anyone so i tend to believe he is clean. But in such a dirty sport i.will always have doubts (just as.i.have doubts that lemond big mig etc were possibley dirty as well )
 
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