Don't deny it, the KOM...can it help you better yourself as a rider?
- Thread starter Dave Taylor
- Start date
1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
I've never really been all that into KOMs. I'm not anti-KOM, I just never cared all that much. I do think it's cool to see people get it when they chase them down - one of my buddies is obsessed with getting KOMs at Green Lane and I'm always excited to see him get one. I do think people can be dicks about them, though - case in point: there's a KOM segment near me that runs along a road that has two lights consecutively within 50 feet of one another and the segment ends right beyond the second light. That seems like the guy designed it specifically to make attempts to take it away from him impossible about half the time. And then there's the assholes who get pissed off when they lose their spot in line - I know a lady who is super fast (she's won almost every race out there at one point or another) but whenever she takes a high spot in the rankings in Wharton in the winter, some asshat flags her ride. I wish I could find who is doing that because I'd invite him to ride with her some time and I'd just hang out behind him and watch him bleed out his eyes trying to hold her wheel.
But as long as you aren't a dick about them, I think using them for training motivation is a great idea. And it's cool that you've got the dogs to run with who can push you! Have at it!
But as long as you aren't a dick about them, I think using them for training motivation is a great idea. And it's cool that you've got the dogs to run with who can push you! Have at it!
Dave Taylor
Rex kwan Do
On point. I’ll often remake segments to stop well before light or stop sign. I’ll make them so you can’t fly down a hill into them either. I will only flag obvious vehicle or ebike rides. Perfectly ok to lead in, use wind, momentum aero suit etc…just no outside power. Recently I got a couple of downhill roller segs averaging over 32 mph for 4-6 miles. This required a tailwind, supertuck and good power to the pedals while supertuckin. There was a way Froome one that one TDF…
Pearl
THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
Haven’t seen him since…
xc62701
Well-Known Member
While I can’t say I really chase KOM’s regularly, every now and then I’ll see one I’m not too far off of and wonder if I can get it. Besides that it’s all fun and I never really take them seriously. Most times the segments are more of an afterthought and I just use it to compare my fitness to earlier attempts. That’s all. If you really wanna race, sign up for a race.
Strava is fun... to me it's a game... I mean if it were a card game.. everyone would have a deck with different numbers of cards in it and the dealer would be blindfolded.... At least it has the compare feature so you can see how shitty the app (or some devices) works 😂.
I do like to play the game... I would say it's far more applicable to racing Enduro than xc in terms of training... For Enduro racing, it's still not like racing, but it's at least in the ball park. I enjoy the back and forth me, Ed Emery, and @graveyardman67 have on wildcat downhills....Does it make me a better rider?? Well there is never a day where I feel like I am as good of a "rider" as Bill or Ed....but that doesn't mean I can't figure out how to get thru a segment faster using what tools I do have. So I guess its like a problem solving exercise at times. Better lines, different bike, etc...But at the end of the day, the strava app can be so wildly inaccurate, you cant really take segment times TOO seriously....as @xc62701 said, if you really want to know anything meaningful, enter a race.
I do like to play the game... I would say it's far more applicable to racing Enduro than xc in terms of training... For Enduro racing, it's still not like racing, but it's at least in the ball park. I enjoy the back and forth me, Ed Emery, and @graveyardman67 have on wildcat downhills....Does it make me a better rider?? Well there is never a day where I feel like I am as good of a "rider" as Bill or Ed....but that doesn't mean I can't figure out how to get thru a segment faster using what tools I do have. So I guess its like a problem solving exercise at times. Better lines, different bike, etc...But at the end of the day, the strava app can be so wildly inaccurate, you cant really take segment times TOO seriously....as @xc62701 said, if you really want to know anything meaningful, enter a race.
So, I think "yes". I think I started paying attention to this around 2011 when I started riding a lot more consistently, especially on the road. There definitely weren't anywhere near as many people using Strava so it was easier to show up on a leaderboard. I think it was helpful in a couple of ways.
If you're not racing, doing group rides, or riding with a power meter, it's hard to get a sense of where you stand against any kind of benchmark. If you're a runner and running on reasonably flat ground, you can pretty much directly compare your pace to the rest of the running population. It's a lot harder to do this on a bike because there are so many more variables. It also can be interesting to compare where you're losing time vs the KOM. On the road I was usually close on the hard parts of a climb, but I'd be a lot slower on the flatter parts or sometimes right at the start.
The other aspect is just potentially adding some structure to rides. Having a catalog of climbs and records in your local area means that instead of just going out on every ride and doing a similar loop at the same pace, you might explore more or mix in harder efforts.
With both, there are people who take it to ridiculous extremes, but in general I think chasing KOMs is fun and can have actual training benefits.
Just for laughs I took a look at a couple of segments that I used to really focus on ~10 years ago. 88/1307 on Schoolhouse Ln in Morristown and 30/459 on Skyline in Morristown. Nothing amazing, but still feel pretty ok about those.
If you're not racing, doing group rides, or riding with a power meter, it's hard to get a sense of where you stand against any kind of benchmark. If you're a runner and running on reasonably flat ground, you can pretty much directly compare your pace to the rest of the running population. It's a lot harder to do this on a bike because there are so many more variables. It also can be interesting to compare where you're losing time vs the KOM. On the road I was usually close on the hard parts of a climb, but I'd be a lot slower on the flatter parts or sometimes right at the start.
The other aspect is just potentially adding some structure to rides. Having a catalog of climbs and records in your local area means that instead of just going out on every ride and doing a similar loop at the same pace, you might explore more or mix in harder efforts.
With both, there are people who take it to ridiculous extremes, but in general I think chasing KOMs is fun and can have actual training benefits.
Just for laughs I took a look at a couple of segments that I used to really focus on ~10 years ago. 88/1307 on Schoolhouse Ln in Morristown and 30/459 on Skyline in Morristown. Nothing amazing, but still feel pretty ok about those.
Dave Taylor
Rex kwan Do
I do both.I think road is much more accurate but woods can be depending on tree cover. Comparing efforts always reveals the glitches or shortcuts. That's how we figured shortcuts were used on Tiger Woods at Allaire and Brown's Loop at Huber. Your line choice on DHs actually applies to tricky woods climbs as well. Newer GPS units are def more accurate and I will often make new segments to replace old and glitchy ones. My simple point though is they make competition. over in the Monmouth County area the road riding levels definitely increased in the last 5 years and it's do to all the locals pushing each other and group rides we created. Hour Of Power was a critical simulation, Hillz ride was all out efforts on 30sec-5 min segs with complete recovery in between. Rest runs were like a hard but smooth pace line ride etc.
rick81721
Lothar
Should move this to your tinfoil thread. I used to take creatine and arginine (I was working on arginine at work and had an unlimited supply). Forget why I stopped. Gotta look into it again.
Dave Taylor
Rex kwan Do
I used to use beta alanine as well forget why IU stopped. Would eat cans of beets too haha.
Yes this is true if your goal is to take KOMs....but with regards to how it applies to an XC race....I mean when im actually racing XC...either im too tired to have my best effort up a climb, or im saving matches for later in the race...so its not the same mindset for me...Whereas in enduro, im trying to light the whole book of matches at once....much more applicable.
I guess, but most any road segment outside of a climb is taken via groups now. At least in my hood anyway.
Johnny Utah
Well-Known Member
I used to be into this, doing so I made a bunch of segments starting at my house so I could track progress. It did make me a better rider.
Long story short some dudes started driving to and unloading their bikes next to my house to grab said segments. Very weird.
Then people were heavily modifying trails to get said KOM’s, my rides were being flagged if I took someone’s KOM and I got accused of “digitally doping”.
Huge turn off - lots of douchery. Pretty much everything I am trying to avoid in life. But that’s me.
Now I am living my best life.
Long story short some dudes started driving to and unloading their bikes next to my house to grab said segments. Very weird.
Then people were heavily modifying trails to get said KOM’s, my rides were being flagged if I took someone’s KOM and I got accused of “digitally doping”.
Huge turn off - lots of douchery. Pretty much everything I am trying to avoid in life. But that’s me.
Now I am living my best life.
Dave Taylor
Rex kwan Do
He is my height (6’3”) and usually 200-215lbs. I did my 373 20 min pr at 193lbs.
We have a local guy Jim Guerreri here. I think he is around 48yo. As well as he climbs he pulls on flats just as hard. I think he is 145lbs and just did a new 20 min pr on bear mountain this weekend. Maybe 310 watts or so? He said he is almost 5 w/kg. Not bad a for a hobby cyclist.
Dave Taylor
Rex kwan Do
So that was our goal. Most of these segs were taken as individuals. Derek T a local national level ironman guy did the 10 min loop pr on sandy hook solo. We are not the TDF but we can essentially do similar tactics to make breakaways on a segment from group rides that had them. Like I said, aero, momentum, all of it.In Maryland here all of the koms I have taken were from people on group rides and there are way more people on segments down this way. For example, I would use a tailwind on a climb but use shorter/harder power efforts I learned in NJ down here. You need to make your bag of tools bigger. You can have an ftp of 600 watts and it doesn’t mean you win the tdf.
Pearl
THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
Something isn't making sense to me, let me bust out the calculator:
372 @ 193lbs (87.5kg) = 4.26 w/kg, which is totally realistic... as well as Jims numbers, I can relate to them better because im closer to his weight than yous guys.
but
460w @ 215lbs (97.5kg) = 4.7 w/kg, which is pretty damn strong, i imagine he races cat 1 road/pro mtb and destroys it? Thats some serious horsepower, i imagine if he can do 400-425w for an hour he'd win almost every TT in the area?
Even some of the climbs. I remember being confused by the times on a few and the data was showing the top few people starting the climb coming off of a flat or even slightly uphill road doing close to 40mph.
I recently went down hole of comparing the strava app to my 510. Water Co and Nesh have a thick tree canopy AND bodies of water that just hold the humid in and it is usually the highest when I ride in the AM. Anyways, I noticed a few people getting PR's / crowns with the app and their GPS line was all over the place. Anyways, the comparison was pointless because there was no control to compare against. But it just proves that if you have really twisty trails and heavy tree canopy that you are going to see some funky results. And the faster you go, the worst it gets. As noted, this is less of an issue on the road but can still happen for the same reason. So really if you are within a sec or two of the KOM, it is basically the same time since there is no way to compare the accuracy between the two times.
All that being said, I am 1 sec back on two fast sections currently and it is annoying lol
All that being said, I am 1 sec back on two fast sections currently and it is annoying lol
Dave Taylor
Rex kwan Do
I have only ever had one ride flagged. No one has accused me of digital doping. The most I have done is use a garmin watch that can’t connect to power, enter a seg super fast from a diff angle , use gail force winds(sandy hook northbound), clipon bars or even some dirt road climbs in a road bike. I use powermeters on all road and mtb stuff now to calm the haters.