Allaire Conditions
- Thread starter Frank
- Start date
Sorry this post is so long. Far more I want to talk about, but want to cut it short here.
I do want to thank everyone who has put so much time into this park over the years, both with outreach and maintenance. While I don't know the full story, I have heard MTB wouldn't be allowed at Allaire without some of the people here. I live 3-4 mins from the park, and I haven't been biking long but this sport has changed my life for the better. By far the best hobby I have ever taken up, and I deeply love the sandy shithole that is Allaire.
That being said, I would ignore any sign put up as well. While I don't have 20 years in this park, I can see damage that comes from nature being far more destructive than mud riding. Good chance I am ignorant on this, and would be open to evidence to the other side. I have personally seen trails deeply change from heavy storms in one night, and considerably less from mud riding.
For me, in weighing the potential fun of riding in the mud, vs the damage caused is a no brainer. I would happily dig/maintain to "fix" the damage caused in exchange for the slippery dirt and hard sand. This goes for many of the people I ride with too. We will plan to go out explicitly when it is raining, because the dirt/sand is better.
Do the rangers have issues with mud riding/jump making? Has there been "instructions" given by them on mud riding/jump making?
Unless the park is officially closed, I don't really see any method of enforcement on the mud riding either. Have looked through Title 7 Chapter 2 of the NJAC and seems totally allowed to me.
Do you blame us for thinking ATUG/JORBA is lame? When these are the attitudes expressed to some of the most fun aspects of riding by the people in the org, why would we? If ATUG/JORBA was leading the charge to get new fun flow trails built, and pushing for skills and jump parks like many other states I think you would see much larger participation and support among younger people.
I would also be happy to attend any meeting.
I do want to thank everyone who has put so much time into this park over the years, both with outreach and maintenance. While I don't know the full story, I have heard MTB wouldn't be allowed at Allaire without some of the people here. I live 3-4 mins from the park, and I haven't been biking long but this sport has changed my life for the better. By far the best hobby I have ever taken up, and I deeply love the sandy shithole that is Allaire.
That being said, I would ignore any sign put up as well. While I don't have 20 years in this park, I can see damage that comes from nature being far more destructive than mud riding. Good chance I am ignorant on this, and would be open to evidence to the other side. I have personally seen trails deeply change from heavy storms in one night, and considerably less from mud riding.
For me, in weighing the potential fun of riding in the mud, vs the damage caused is a no brainer. I would happily dig/maintain to "fix" the damage caused in exchange for the slippery dirt and hard sand. This goes for many of the people I ride with too. We will plan to go out explicitly when it is raining, because the dirt/sand is better.
Does this mean that "the park" does not have any interest in maintaining the trails and it is up to the users to do it?
Do the rangers have issues with mud riding/jump making? Has there been "instructions" given by them on mud riding/jump making?
Unless the park is officially closed, I don't really see any method of enforcement on the mud riding either. Have looked through Title 7 Chapter 2 of the NJAC and seems totally allowed to me.
I think the continued message here is the park doesn't give a fuck? People have 100% been seriously injured at the park, nothing has changed.
Do you blame us for thinking ATUG/JORBA is lame? When these are the attitudes expressed to some of the most fun aspects of riding by the people in the org, why would we? If ATUG/JORBA was leading the charge to get new fun flow trails built, and pushing for skills and jump parks like many other states I think you would see much larger participation and support among younger people.
I would also be happy to attend any meeting.
I think these are constructive comments. Allaire State Park doesn't have the resources to police themselves. They have put signs up in the past closing illegal trails and they have been ripped down and that was it. They don't have the resources to go out and see what is happening beyond the parking lots.
In response to JORBA getting involved with building new fun trails, JORBA has done this all over NJ. Take a ride and check them out. The idea of I'm bored of the existing Allaire trails let's go illegally build something new has so many thing wrong with it, but I won't regurgitate because no one cares.
The land management plan for each park is different. These land management plans lay the frame work for how the park will operate. They only allow for so many miles of trails to be built. These land management plans can change but it takes a lot of effort.
Honestly I understand why people build illegal trails and ride in shitty conditions, but if you were / or are part of the effort to keep existing trails open, get new riding areas open, get new legal trails built, etc then I think most would understand why the older wrinkly guys get so upset when they see what is going on at places like Allaire. They have been around long enough to see what can happen if we abuse our privilege. This has been said a million times on here.
I believe that people who oppose these views don't want to be bothered with the bureaucracy so they do what they want. This is fine and fun until it doesn't work and things go south but these same people don't think that will ever happen.
In response to JORBA getting involved with building new fun trails, JORBA has done this all over NJ. Take a ride and check them out. The idea of I'm bored of the existing Allaire trails let's go illegally build something new has so many thing wrong with it, but I won't regurgitate because no one cares.
The land management plan for each park is different. These land management plans lay the frame work for how the park will operate. They only allow for so many miles of trails to be built. These land management plans can change but it takes a lot of effort.
Honestly I understand why people build illegal trails and ride in shitty conditions, but if you were / or are part of the effort to keep existing trails open, get new riding areas open, get new legal trails built, etc then I think most would understand why the older wrinkly guys get so upset when they see what is going on at places like Allaire. They have been around long enough to see what can happen if we abuse our privilege. This has been said a million times on here.
I believe that people who oppose these views don't want to be bothered with the bureaucracy so they do what they want. This is fine and fun until it doesn't work and things go south but these same people don't think that will ever happen.
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The Kalmyk
Well-Known Member
when you say “us”, who are you speaking on behalf of? Im not following?
I read the NJAC too. I have been doing this kind of reading for most of my 28 year career. Seems you overlooked some key sections:
Section 7:2-1.3 - Construction
a) These rules shall be liberally construed to permit the Department, the Division of Parks and Forestry, the State Park Service and its various agencies to discharge its statutory functions.
Section 7:2-1.4 - Practice where rules do not govern
(a) The Commissioner may rescind, amend or expand these rules from time to time, as in accordance with the Administrative Procedure Act, 52:14B-1 et seq.
(b) The Commissioner, the Director of the Division of Parks and Forestry or the Assistant Director of the Division for the State Park Service shall exercise their authority in respect to any other matters not governed by these rules.
Section 7:2-12.2 - Hiking trail use
(a) The use of all designated hiking trails except for posted multi-use trails is restricted solely to foot travel and the legitimate activities associated with the pursuit of hiking.
Section 7:2-12.3 - Hiking trail restrictions
(i) The cutting, digging, defacing and/or removal of any vegetation or physical features is prohibited.
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"Physical features" is not defined in the definitions sections, but National Geographic states: "The physical and human characteristics of a place make it unique. Physical characteristics include the natural environment, such as landforms, elevation, water features, climate, soil, natural vegetation, and animal life. "
Seems under a liberal construction of the rules, the Allaire trails are multi-use hiking trails.
To answer your questions about mud riding and jump making- the answer is these are prohibited because they involve digging and defacing of physical features (soil).
Under liberal and expansive construction mud riding involves digging and defacing the soil. Merriam Webster defines "dig" as "to break up, turn, or loosen (earth) with an implement." Therefore, riding when the trails are muddy is digging up the soil because a bicycle is an implement that is breaking up, turning and loosening the soil."
Perhaps the folks at JORBA could contact the Commissioner, the Director of the Division of Parks and Forestry or the Assistant Director of the Division for the State Park Service to discuss if they would entertain proper signage, and asking if the Park Police could block off the trails during and after heavy rains.
I ran into some newbs out in the WMA South of the paved driveway off of Ramshorn this summer installing new jumps on one of the main trails. I politely informed the gentleman and his young son that they are really not supposed to be doing that in a WMA or on State property, and the gentleman was indignant that he could do what he wanted. Not in the mood for a snit, I moved along shaking my head.
w_b
Well-Known Member
Great post. Man, you seriously need an insurrection to attend. I’m not the trail police, far from it, and all who know me know I shall not STFU based on your, or any other’s, ignorant blithering. If I’m wrong, I admit it, hopefully learn something and move on. Now that is what you need to do.
Perhaps at the same time you can try to suggest some solutions instead of ranting here. Any solutions will have a more positive effect than your plan.
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MikeyBikey2000
Well-Known Member
This thread sucks... Is 6 Mile rideable today?
iLuveketchup
Well-Known Member
Even on a clear beautiful day, why would anyone ride 6 Mile? 🤣
kidding... (or not?)
I really didn't post here to be inflammatory, just want to gather more information and see if my justifications for riding were appropriate. I can kind of see the point about mud riding, I say kind of because I am not totally convinced on its effects on Allaire soil. For 6MR soil, the effects are very clear.
Would it be a appropriate compromise to park at the powerlines and only ride the sand when its wet? To me that is when conditions here are best and damage to sand seems minimal compared to areas where there is more soil.
This is fair; but that doesn't mean both statements can't be somewhat true. Things change over time, and this has been very true for MTB. I think that means the goals of a long established org don't necessarily reflect on the goals of new users. I don't think anyone here has an unreasonable stance, we all just want to ride bikes. I really do commend the people who fought to keep this place open to mtb, I cannot overstate the enjoyment I get from this park.
Not questioning the illegality of jump making or cutting trails, think its pretty clear digging on state park land is bad and really don't love it. I just understand that people want to do it, and if not given a place to do it legally, they will do it.
Would it be a appropriate compromise to park at the powerlines and only ride the sand when its wet? To me that is when conditions here are best and damage to sand seems minimal compared to areas where there is more soil.
This is fair; but that doesn't mean both statements can't be somewhat true. Things change over time, and this has been very true for MTB. I think that means the goals of a long established org don't necessarily reflect on the goals of new users. I don't think anyone here has an unreasonable stance, we all just want to ride bikes. I really do commend the people who fought to keep this place open to mtb, I cannot overstate the enjoyment I get from this park.
Not questioning the illegality of jump making or cutting trails, think its pretty clear digging on state park land is bad and really don't love it. I just understand that people want to do it, and if not given a place to do it legally, they will do it.
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Cassinonorth
Well-Known Member
From what I gather (feel free to correct me anyone), chicken or the egg situation here. JORBA doesn't have the big numbers that even VMBA has (in a far less dense state) so the power to have those type of trails built isn't quite there. More JORBA members=more power=better access=better MTB trails.
stilluf
Well-Known Member
@Bisquick I'm glad MTB has changed your life. Outside of my family, MTB is the one thing I can count on to always put me in a better mood (even on my crappiest riding day).
However, if you want JORBA to "lead the charge" and push for new jump trails, why not join, get active, and see what it actually takes? My bet is that once you see how the sausage is made (ie getting the local land manager to agree), you will have a new appreciation for what actually does get built, as well as those who do it.
However, if you want JORBA to "lead the charge" and push for new jump trails, why not join, get active, and see what it actually takes? My bet is that once you see how the sausage is made (ie getting the local land manager to agree), you will have a new appreciation for what actually does get built, as well as those who do it.
mfennell
Well-Known Member
There are something like 70 miles of trails in "Allaire" now. I'm in awe of anyone who actually knows them (I only know 2 or 3) let alone gets so bored they feel the need to break out the shovels.
Roughly 50ish miles are illegal. It's actually probably more than that. Come on, shiny new things are always better than old, overused, worn out stuff.
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Frank
Sasquatch
I’m happy to see that something like this thread can get you worked up, it means you have no real issues to deal with.
As someone who has been with atug and Jorba since the beginning of active tm at Allaire I can tell you we had quite a fight to keep the trails open. We also had to overcome issues with the equestrian community because they reported us ever chance they got. So I may have experience with a thing or two.
Sandy trails do drain well…..in the summer when the trees are absorbing the water. In the winter it needs to drain off the trails because there is a frost barrier that can prevent ground drainage. So when we get alarmed about trail damage, it is real.
Just my 2 cents.
As someone who has been with atug and Jorba since the beginning of active tm at Allaire I can tell you we had quite a fight to keep the trails open. We also had to overcome issues with the equestrian community because they reported us ever chance they got. So I may have experience with a thing or two.
Sandy trails do drain well…..in the summer when the trees are absorbing the water. In the winter it needs to drain off the trails because there is a frost barrier that can prevent ground drainage. So when we get alarmed about trail damage, it is real.
Just my 2 cents.
I would pause the discussion here and say, because of this, you have the ability to be more selective when you ride. If you drive an hour only to find the trails are muddy, I get why you would keep riding. If you live 4 minutes away, IMO less of an excuse. Being realistic, if all the locals (inside 30 minutes) avoided the park when it's muddy, there would be less of an issue. You probably have 300 days a year when Allaire is perfectly fine. As someone who lives 4 minutes away, I would ask that you focus on the 300 and skip the 65 other days. If it pours on Feb 29th every 4th year, I'll let it slide if you ride that day.
Well it seems like the concensus is clear here about how we should act as mountain bikers in the parks we use. Hopefully I can see the issue as clearly as everyone here and consider myself a trail steward in the future as you have all obviously been for many years.
Hope you all can see that is one of my stupider moments, but the message on this has been received loud and clear.
Hope you all can see that is one of my stupider moments, but the message on this has been received loud and clear.
Juggernaut
Master of the Metaphor
Yep, it’s winter.
Sum it up like this…. If you practice your irons in an open field, do you replace your divots even if no one saw you? If you respect yourself, you do…. Just because.
Sum it up like this…. If you practice your irons in an open field, do you replace your divots even if no one saw you? If you respect yourself, you do…. Just because.
Johnny Utah
Well-Known Member
Snow Report.
3-5” in places. As of 3pm the walkers and some cyclists have hit the trails between the main Hospital Road Lot and the sandpit. These tracks along with the mud ruts will freeze overnight. (Hopefully)
Blind trail, parts of Mick’s trail are saturated and did not take snow. There is a lot of standing water on those trails.
The further you get from the lot the better, but the standing water from before the storm was not frozen today.
Saturday - We are going to get a freeze tonight, if you are riding the previously mentioned areas studs will be your friend. Once it warms up the sandpit to the main Hospital Road lot will be a wet mess.
The WMA will be deep with hunters tomorrow as the snow tracking is a dream. Those areas should not have bikes on them with exception to Sundays during hunting season.
3-5” in places. As of 3pm the walkers and some cyclists have hit the trails between the main Hospital Road Lot and the sandpit. These tracks along with the mud ruts will freeze overnight. (Hopefully)
Blind trail, parts of Mick’s trail are saturated and did not take snow. There is a lot of standing water on those trails.
The further you get from the lot the better, but the standing water from before the storm was not frozen today.
Saturday - We are going to get a freeze tonight, if you are riding the previously mentioned areas studs will be your friend. Once it warms up the sandpit to the main Hospital Road lot will be a wet mess.
The WMA will be deep with hunters tomorrow as the snow tracking is a dream. Those areas should not have bikes on them with exception to Sundays during hunting season.