09 Superfly

[don]

Don't get me going on this one, but, nothing is made in america, mostly because americans aren't willing to pay for it...We expect too much product for too little money, and then we want to make too much money for doing too little work and you can't have both. You just can't get a 5 inch travel carbon 29er with full XTR and GPS for $500 without it being made by a 5 year-old that gets paid in bowls of rice:hmmm:

-Jim.

And PS-It doesn't matter even if you buy a frame built here in the US, try building it up with US components!!

So true. And sorry in advance for going off topic.

Like you said you can buy US made frames but it will cost. IMO, it's worth it. My USB was made by MAAS, Rhygin in Boston years ago, and the Sinister just over the border in CAN (which is still ok in my books). The Kona is Tawain of course but I've been eyeing FBM's fixed gear frame as a replacement at some point.

I think most of Santa Cruz is in Tawain now. Who is left for sussy frames? Turner, Ventana, Intense, & Ellsworth?

I'm pretty stoked that the Rhygin has a strong percentage of US Made stuff - Phil hubs, Sun rims, Thomson gear, King HS, and oldie SDG saddle, Cook Brother cranks, Salsa chainring, White Industries Freewheel, Altek levers. Come to think of it I should work on trying to get that bear 100% US made. The USB has a lot of US products on it too.

 

[Takedown]

I remember at the beginning of this year when I was looking for my bike I went into the LBS and saw a FS Trek MTB for $2500 and thought well that's because it's made in the USA. Then I took a closer look and I saw the made in Taiwan sticker and made the sickest face I think I have ever made....it was so apparent the store sales person had to ask me what is wrong...lol. I couldn't believe that a bike that was not made in the USA was that much, then I looked at more bikes and I saw MTBs that were in the 4000-6000 range that were again made in Taiwan. It just doesn't make sense, if the bikes were made in the USA how much would they cost, $7000 to 12000…….how can a MTB potentially cost more then a Harley or a CBR1000 if it were made in the USA.

Going to have to look up Rhygin, If I can buy US then I will buy it. I have nothing against stuff made in Taiwan, for the most part it's good stuff and Japanese made components...Japanese made anything are usually top notch but I am still not convinced Chinese made anything has come close to American made, Japanese made or Taiwanese made.

 

[MTB Aussie]

OT apologies again, but how many of you looking for a US made bike are driving US built cars?? Cmon, it's a global economy and Jim makes the perfect point about our willingness to pay, or not, for a good product. With manufacturing processes and standardization there is typically nothing wrong with a frame made in Taiwan, and making it in the US doesnt make it any better. If you have the wallet you can pay for hand built but your main advantage there is custom fit.

I read an article about Santa Cruz and their offshore efforts, and one of the production managers said they had brought quite a bit of it back due to flexibility in making quick design changes. Now there is a reason to make stuff locally. The same way some call centers are bringing themselves back in country. Combined with a lower dollar value and customers perceived quality of service you may just be better off basing your customer service in Lenexa Kansas.

just my $2.00 (it would have been two cents if I had written it from somewhere out of country )

 

[Glancing Aft]

OT apologies again, but how many of you looking for a US made bike are driving US built cars??

Not that I disagree with your argument, but to be my typical annoying self. Isn't your Honda Element built in Ohio?

 

[Glancing Aft]

Back on topic though. I knew the price hike was coming, but for me it's far more digestible seeing it on low to mid range bikes. Seeing a year over year increase in the superfly MSRP of 33%, prices it right out of the market for me and I think it would for many others. (Although I'm sure it will sell right out again).

 

[don]

I remember at the beginning of this year when I was looking for my bike I went into the LBS and saw a FS Trek MTB for $2500 and thought well that's because it's made in the USA. Then I took a closer look and I saw the made in Taiwan sticker and made the sickest face I think I have ever made....it was so apparent the store sales person had to ask me what is wrong...lol. I couldn't believe that a bike that was not made in the USA was that much, then I looked at more bikes and I saw MTBs that were in the 4000-6000 range that were again made in Taiwan. It just doesn't make sense, if the bikes were made in the USA how much would they cost, $7000 to 12000…….how can a MTB potentially cost more then a Harley or a CBR1000 if it were made in the USA.

Going to have to look up Rhygin, If I can buy US then I will buy it. I have nothing against stuff made in Taiwan, for the most part it's good stuff and Japanese made components...Japanese made anything are usually top notch but I am still not convinced Chinese made anything has come close to American made, Japanese made or Taiwanese made.

You can get a very nice US Made suspension frame for around $2,000 new. I've bought and sold hi-end frames used and have been happy - it allowed me to get in at a cheaper cost. I've had the same components for the most parts for years and just swap with the frame. Running a 1x8 setup makes this a little easier too.

This bikes will have foreign made components but will give you a price range:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCM?PAGE=BRANDS&TYPE=FRAME

About Rhygin - they've been out of business for a long while. I bought the frame with custom geometry in '97. I saved for a year and was and still very happy with the purchase. It doesn't get much use but it will never be sold.

 

[Norm]

You just can't get a 5 inch travel carbon 29er with full XTR and GPS for $500 without it being made by a 5 year-old that gets paid in bowls of rice:hmmm:

Jim that's a pretty uneducated statement. I realize a lot of people think that the overseas stuff is trash made by parent less children in sweat shops. Maybe the socks you're wearing or most of your kitchen utensils fall into this category. But Taiwan and Japan are both producing high-quality products in quality-controlled environments.

Here's a picture from an assembly line in Taiwan. I believe this is your 5 year old boy:

I've also been told by someone who went to one of the production floors in Taiwan that the place was clean enough to eat off the floor. Also, and I know this may be a shock to some people, but both Taiwan and Japan are enjoying a pretty high quality of living. If you haven't noticed, the quality of life and lifespan of the Japanese surpasses that which we experience here. Taiwan certainly has some ground to make up on that front but you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between Taipei and any major city in the world. You can just as easily get $3 cups of Starbucks coffee in Taiwan as you can in NYC.

My point is that these societies are living in the first world with high life expectancies and high quality of life and yet they can still manage to produce higher-quality products at lower prices even though you need to ship it 8000 miles across the world. Perhaps we should consider the fact that our government spends so much money on things like subsidizing corn to the point that it's actually cheaper to get sugar out of corn than sugar cane. Or that we live in such an Entitlement society that any progress is met with resistance, no American should ever lose a job even if incredible efficiencies have been realized. Sorry, but the reality is that 1 hour of work in America costs you about $500 because you end up paying 9 people to sit around and do nothing while 1 person actually does work.

Check it out, there's an election coming up this year. Maybe as we bitch and moan using our off-shore computers, wearing off-shore clothes, driving off-shore cars, eating our fruit imported from South America, we might want to collectively consider all of this before we go into knee-jerk reaction mode. I think in Japan right now they're actually designing a better mousetrap while we here complain about the fact that if we wanted to build a better mousetrap we'd need combat pay, a raise, free coffee, a 6% 401k plan, free lunch on Friday, at least 4 weeks of vacation plus unlimited sick days, the ability to work from home 2 days a week, and a personal HR rep to listen to me bitch and moan about the fact my boss hurt my feelings when he didn't address me in the subway this morning.

So I went on a little tangent here, and Jim this isn't directed at you personally so much as it's an unloading. And maybe you're bound to get a reply like this given the fact my wife was Made in Taiwan and I've been to the island 3 times in the past 7 years. But jeez people you gotta collectively wake up before you say some things.

This did make me laugh though:

just my $2.00 (it would have been two cents if I had written it from somewhere out of country )

Ok, I gotta go take a 15 minute break and unwind with some free coffee now...

 

[MTB Aussie]

Not that I disagree with your argument, but to be my typical annoying self. Isn't your Honda Element built in Ohio?

I have no idea where it is "built", and nor do I care. It's a quality product at a good price. I think Norm hit it on the head.

 

[jShort]

a raise, free coffee, a 6% 401k plan, free lunch on Friday, at least 4 weeks of vacation plus unlimited sick days, the ability to work from home 2 days a week, and a personal HR rep to listen to me bitch and moan about the fact my boss hurt my feelings when he didn't address me in the subway this morning.

.

So... your saying some people dont have that? Sheesh...get a new job then..

 

[Nimrod]

I’m a hardware manufacturer in the Semiconductor field. Valves, traps, flanges, etc.

We supply the OEM tool builders with stuff. Typical tools used to make IC’s are (about) 2-3 million a piece. A normal IC fab needs lots of tools, total costs about 1-2 plus billion to “tool up” and make computer chips.

Most of the Semi tools used world wide to make your computer chips, where built in Silicone Valley till 5 years ago. The industry reached a maturity point, really no new technology driving it, the tools are “Standard” now = Applied Materials and most of the other major OEM houses now sub their tools out to the Pacific Rim countries. Higher profit margins got to keep the shareholders happy.

This is high-end manufacturing, Rocket Scientist stuff. “Welcome to the new world order”.

 

[jbogner]

My point is that these societies are living in the first world with high life expectancies and high quality of life and yet they can still manage to produce higher-quality products at lower prices even though you need to ship it 8000 miles across the world.

But honestly, they can't. They used to be able to, but the rising standard (and cost) of living in Taiwan has pushed most manufacturing (especially low-end) into China now (where quality is not the same as Taiwan). I mean, with Taiwanese and Chinese bikes increasing in cost by 20-30%, they're actually growing closer to the cost to produce them in the US. It's only a matter of time before there's no cost difference, especially with the dollar as weak as it is.

Specialized charges $1900 for a "made-in-Taiwan-by-Merida's-robots" Stumpy 29er frame, while Intense charges $2140 for a frame designed and hand built in the USA by one of their four master welders. A complete Stumpy 29er is $4100, while a complete Spider with equivalent parts could be built for exactly the same (from Competitive Cyclist). The margin of difference between Taiwan and the USA is becoming negligible...

 

[don]

Norm - many many great points and the facts about Tawain shops being very good is something I've heard about before. I think Jim might have been talking more about Chinese made bikes. Their factories could be very nice with great working conditions too but it surprises me how they can bring over some of the bikes they can for such a low price. It's great that people can walk in a shop and get a very nice bike for $300 to get into riding but it doesn't make sense when you see what some people will spend on clothes, cars, and video games.

And what you say is true - why complain about foreign made bikes when everything else we use is made in China too? Try buying clothes from North America - it's nearly impossible. But with the cost of fuel, I think things are going to change - hopefully for the better.

The root of it from what I've been reading, and it makes a lot of sense, is going to a more local economy - food especially. Our economy is so efficient right now and you can see it from the prices of goods at the local Wal-Mart but there is a whole mess of problems that stems from it. We wouldn't be complaining about fuel prices if we didn't have to drive so much to do the simplest of things.

I like that fact that I was able to talk to Bruce and Skye at Sinister before I bought one. Or even cooler, getting props from FTW himself on a small vid I showed them from riding it. If I was up in MA I'm sure they would hook up for a ride. I've riden with Sean and Lee @ USB at Ray's. Turner helped out on a sale of an old RFX, by helping the new owner with a replacement seatstay. Maybe I spent a little more than on a bike made in Tawain but the small sense of community is worth it.

 

[Norm]

Absolutely, and that points out that we're always in an evolving global economy with ebbs and flows of work, production, and technology. You cite that work is moving to China, which has been true since the 1970s. When we were kids everything was made in Taiwan. Now everything is made in China. But we're still talking lower-quality products. You don't get the quality assurance from China that you get from Taiwan.

The $1900 versus $2140 frame is still roughly a 10% difference and $240 still adds up to 6-8 weeks of gas for some people. At this stage it's almost 4 months of gas for the amount I drive. The point is that $240 isn't negligible and still represents a high-end product at a lower price point, including the cost to ship it over here. Given the cost of fuel that's still a pretty impressive accomplishment. These companies haven't needed to really tweak the bottom line to stay 1 step ahead. Once the $240 starts to approach $0 I'll go ahead and bet more efficiencies are introduced into the system and the US price still tops the overseas price. Additionally, Taiwan is in the global economy and they're going to maximize their profit, keeping their price point as high as it can be without losing business. Even if it cost $1 to produce that Specialized frame they're not going to sell for $1.

For sure the world economy has balance points, and the 10:1 ratio you used to get with Chinese engineers is now more like 3:1. Same thing is happening in India. Someone mentioned quicker turnaround as a reason US companies are pulling back from off-shore but the reality is that you used to be able to get 10 hours of Chinese/Indian work for 1 US hour and that's rapidly shrinking, so the quality versus cost assessment isn't such an issue anymore.

 

[Nimrod]

But honestly, they can't. They used to be able to, but the rising standard (and cost) of living in Taiwan has pushed most manufacturing (especially low-end) into China now (where quality is not the same as Taiwan). I mean, with Taiwanese and Chinese bikes increasing in cost by 20-30%, they're actually growing closer to the cost to produce them in the US. It's only a matter of time before there's no cost difference, especially with the dollar as weak as it is.

Specialized charges $1900 for a "made-in-Taiwan-by-Merida's-robots" Stumpy 29er frame, while Intense charges $2140 for a frame designed and hand built in the USA by one of their four master welders. A complete Stumpy 29er is $4100, while a complete Spider with equivalent parts could be built for exactly the same (from Competitive Cyclist). The margin of difference between Taiwan and the USA is becoming negligible...

Exactly!

In terms of Asian manufacturing (success stories) first it was Japan (70-80's), then their standard of living grew... so manufacturing went to Taiwan (80-90's) , their standard of living grew.....now China / India are in their manufacturing boom.

The difference being the huge and poor populations of China and India. Its going to be a long time before those two countries standards of living increase significantly for a boomerang (Sp) effect to occur when dealing with economies of scale (their human resources).

 

[Takedown]

WOW, remind me never to ask "I thought that was made in the USA" again...lol.

I think my issue is with the bike industry in general. I was away from MTB for 10 years and when I did come back I was in shock at what a FS MTB cost these days, and then when the sales person pitched to me that the prices would be going up next year as a selling point I almost gave up on the sport all together. But then I thought to myself, I want a Trek because I had a Trek when I was riding way back when and Trek is made in the USA and that is why they are selling the Trek I want at a premium. And that is when I got kicked in the nuts because Made in Taiwan was emblazoned on the frame. How can a MTB cost $2000-$8000, the sales person at one store told me not to consider a FS MTB under 2500 because I would be replacing parts on a regular basis so I seriously was about to give up in disgust. I did eventually buy a no name brand that I am happy with and hope I do not live to regret so I am happily enjoying the sport again.
In reading many of your post It does makes sense that even at $300-500 more a bike if made in the USA is still a deterrent for manufacturing in the USA because Taiwan and Japanese quality is on pare with the USA if not better in some instances. And yes I love Japanese and Taiwanese made stuff from my 50inch Sony screen TV to my Nissan Xterra (although it is manufactured in the USA).