07 Tour de France

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ArmyOfNone said:
I have been watching the tour for a good week now. It really is cool to see what these guys do.
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Not that it makes it right, but i guess if you want to compete at that level, you gotta do what you gotta do.

I will say this...you still have to posses a high level of talent regardless of what you are putting in your body.

This is what kinda has me torn about steroids in baseball. Yea steriods help, but being able to hit a baseball is still one of the hardest things to do in sports.....
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If cycling were totally clean, you probably would not get the level of spectator involvement (and thus influx of sponsorship dollars) that is currently had.

You raise a good point about competition at that level, and that few if any can compete "clean" and still make a thrilling spectacle for the crowds. We can probably say with near-certainty that Curlers are clean athletes, but what level of spectation and sponsorship accompanies them?

Steroids and other PES's in cycling, baseball, bodybuilding, football, basketball - does it make the sports a sham? Some would say no, but in my mind, the public is being suckered into a case of the Emperor's New Clothes with the athletes they so admire.

Drug-enhanced athletes' performances on the field, on the road, or in the ring are not really their own, and it is sad, because they have to sacrifice something deep inside, and know that they are compromising their integrity, just to win. So sport, in its enhanced form, teaches us that winning is the most important thing, the only thing. And the values of hard work, teamwork, cameraderie, nobility even in loss, a sense of class and grace on and off the playing field, and respect for self and others get lost in the pursuit of crushing the competition at all costs.
 
is it not teamwork when you are bent over while someone else injects you? 😀

Im not sure if the level of spectators would change based upon the amount of steriods in a sport. Specifically with the tour, i think alot of pride is involved. The spectators want to see their contrymen do well. This is entertaining in itself. Did anyone see the guy in the devil costume chasing guys up the climbs? :rofl:

When it comes to professional athletes i am amazed at how they do their job. Thats what attracts me. Sure I can hit a baseball, shoot a basket, hey even ride a bike! But not they same way these guys do. Thats what i think draws attention. Its entertainment.

I will agree there is something wrong with the thought that athletes must cheat in order to compete. On some levels i can agree with why they do what they have to do. But there is something wrong with that. :hmmm:
 
walter said:
I dont think that there are any drug free athletes in pro sports.
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Not even Scottie Pippen?

Seriously I think the NBA is probably the cleanest league, I mean at least in terms of performance enhancing drugs. Now performance deterring drugs, well I dunno.

I also doubt Earl Anthony was doping but what do I know?
 
normZurawski said:
Not even Scottie Pippen?

Seriously I think the NBA is probably the cleanest league, I mean at least in terms of performance enhancing drugs. Now performance deterring drugs, well I dunno.

I also doubt Earl Anthony was doping but what do I know?
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Scottie? Not sure, but who knows any more.

Earl Anthony? Hell yea!

Why do you say that about the NBA? Just becuase you have not heard anything? Although i dont know much about the drug testing policy over there. But i think right now the nba has other things to worry about.
 
I'm sure that the ridiculous salaries that teams are prepared to pay will encourage players to do anything and everything to be the best and command that amount of money.

Perhaps in a round-about way this could become that start of a demise in viewing figures, thus sponsorship and finally player's salaries. It's a long way off but maybe the worm is turning. Or at least thinking about what's behind him.
 
ArmyOfNone said:
is it not teamwork when you are bent over while someone else injects you? 😀

Im not sure if the level of spectators would change based upon the amount of steriods in a sport. Specifically with the tour, i think alot of pride is involved. The spectators want to see their contrymen do well. This is entertaining in itself. Did anyone see the guy in the devil costume chasing guys up the climbs? :rofl:

When it comes to professional athletes i am amazed at how they do their job. Thats what attracts me. Sure I can hit a baseball, shoot a basket, hey even ride a bike! But not they same way these guys do. Thats what i think draws attention. Its entertainment.

I will agree there is something wrong with the thought that athletes must cheat in order to compete. On some levels i can agree with why they do what they have to do. But there is something wrong with that. :hmmm:
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The man wearing the devil costume has been a constant fixture on the climbs of the TdF for many years. They say you can smell him before you can see him. Literally.
I've been following professional European road racing on TV since 1985. I have over 50 VCR tapes of any race that would be televised. Even the MTBing races from the 1990's. Juli Furtado, John Tomac, etc. I had magazines going back to the early 1980's - Winning Magazine, Velonews (on newsprint paper), Bicycle Guide, etc. - anything that was out there. Lemond, Team 7-Eleven, The Tour Dupont, the entire career of Lance Armstrong, I watched and read it all.

My enthusiasim for the sport has certainly been tested these past few years, but it's almost an addiction. I say I'm not going to bother with it anymore, but I still turn on the TV and read about it on Cyclingnews.com. It's kind of hard not to be attracted to the speed and finese the riders have, be it sprint finishes, cobbles, or high mountains. But they definitely don't have to be doped up to put on a good show. It would be different, but it still would be good to watch.

I'm holding on to the video tapes for now at least. But 10 years worth of Cycle Sport and Procycling magazines, about 20 years worth of Velonews, and the oldie but goodies from the 1980's magazines got dumped into the recycling bin over the winter when I got pissed off with the whole sport. But I still come back to it. The state of pro racing is pretty sad right now, but they are the only sport that are really making a big effort to clean itself up - unlike the rest of the sporting world. I'll still watch cycling but not with the same feeling, because I don't believe cycling or any other sport will ever be completely "clean". The doping and cheating - I think it has something to do with the nature of the beast.
 
Doping doesn't help cycling appeal to more people. The difference between doping and not doping is a couple miles per hour, average, over the entire tour. That's it. Dopers dope because *they* want to win, or they somehow feel they *have to* since "everyone else is doing it". It's a purely selfish act.

Yes, the tour is hard. It's equally hard for everyone. You must be the best of the best to finish an entire tour. But you do not have to be on drugs to ride well in it. If everyone did not dope, the speeds would reset by about 2 miles an hour, but your average viewer/fan wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

One way or another, doping will be driven from pro cycling. Hopefully, it's not because all the sponsors leave and no riders can afford the drugs.

On a side note, my guess is that hgh is the big thing in the NBA right now. Knees and backs take a huge beating. Cortisone injections only go so far.
 
ArmyOfNone said:
Why do you say that about the NBA? Just becuase you have not heard anything? Although i dont know much about the drug testing policy over there. But i think right now the nba has other things to worry about.
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I say that about the NBA because the key traits you need to do well in the sport - namely height, speed/quickness, and a good shooting touch - isn't made better by any drugs. Strength plays some role in the paint but really do we think Tim Duncan is on steroids?

Jbogner brings up a good point about hgh, but then that doesn't really make anything better, per se. It helps stop the degradation of your body which is enhancement by limiting degradation.

Now I'm sure all these guys get pain killers we can't imagine, and of course cotizone is a fact of life in pro sports. But again, those aren't really performance enhancing, as such.

But then Walter's contention is that there are no drug free athletes, which is probably accurate, though I would say it's more like 99% since nothing in life is 100%. I guess in my mind I classify the drugs into 2 camps: those which kill pain and those which make you stronger/faster/etc.
 
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-tourdefrance-protest&prov=ap&type=lgns

OK, so granted the riders who delayed their start were never in top contention anyway, so the protest is, exactly as the article states, symbolic. It is nice to see that some riders are showing some disgust, but they are not yet walking away from the race...still need a paycheck (we all do, I am not blaming, just sayin').

What might really hit home would be no TdF next year. Or cancel the rest of this year's Tour (WHAAAATTTT??? 😱 )

If the big sponsors took away their money, from whence would come the incentive to cheat? Ah but that is a tired argument anyhow.

What if they made every rider enter a cone of silence after the race and stay there until time to suit up for the next day? A monitored pod where they had to enter wearing only a skinsuit, and only UCI-approved food pills and water bottles were given to replenish their energy stores, and UCI monitors would put them under strict observation and visitors would not be allowed...seems about the only way doping will ever be purged from the sport.

Maybe that will the next sci-fi short story I pen.
 
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Not doping related...

:scared:

I just got a newsflash from a Mexican newspaper (I checked the Spanish newspaper too) that there were a couple of small explosions in Spain where the Tour is today. The explosion was after the media "caravan" had passed. Apparently there was a phone call from the ETA terrorist group claiming responsibility. It says the tour hasn't been canceled for today. No damages have been reported.

I see no news on the American media about this.

WTF!!!!

I dunno if anybody of you speaks Spanish
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/espa...nombre/ETA/elpepuesp/20070725elpepunac_10/Tes
 
elzoller said:
or the Tour itself when an American is not in the lead. 😉
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bunch of self-centered, individualist pigs, we are! 😉

Kidding. American individualism is what makes this country great. And when Tour news has nothing to feature that Americans find interesting...well, why report it? The news has something to sell, too, so they won't waste space with something people would not respond to or understand.

And doesn't ETA do something of this sort each year when the Tour passes into the Pyrenees? Maybe if Euskatel-Euskadi produce a Basque who wins consistently, they will be leary of bombing Tour routes in the future.
 
Setting the doping aspects aside for a moment (I find it very disappointing too) I've found the emergence of Contador particularly exciting. The battle between the Rasmussen in Yellow and Contador in white near the top of the climb (stage 15) was something I've not really seen in a long time. Man, that was good racing.

Another interesting thing is Leipheimer... even though Levi's in 4th GC (no spoilers: I have not checked today's standing, as I wait until the replay on VS) has Bruyneel given up on him (for anything other than a podium finish)? Have they moved all their eggs into the Contador basket? I think they may have. :O
 
mergs said:
Setting the doping aspects aside for a moment (I find it very disappointing too) I've found the emergence of Contador particularly exciting. The battle between the Rasmussen in Yellow and Contador in white near the top of the climb (stage 15) was something I've not really seen in a long time. Man, that was good racing.

Another interesting thing is Leipheimer... even though Levi's in 4th GC (no spoilers: I have not checked today's standing, as I wait until the replay on VS) has Bruyneel given up on him (for anything other than a podium finish)? Have they moved all their eggs into the Contador basket? I think they may have. :O
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I read an article about Leipheimer the other day. It talked about his willingness to defer to Contador as the lead rider. He appears willing to work with Contador to get him to the podium. It has to be tough to be so talented in your own right and thought of as a hopeful to win the overall prize, and then have to help someone else get the glory when they prove themselves. The way Leipheimer appears to be approaching the situation is very classy.

One of the great lessons in teamwork (aside from sticking needles in each other's asses, Fred) and grace that can be taken from the pursuit of sport.
 
Someone's getting popped from the tour today for doping- the UCI will announce later today. I think they decided to wait until the stage was over to make the announcement. Odds are it's Rasmussen or Soler, as they both were tested in the stage were the incident apparently took place (stage 11).

I won't ruin today's results for you, Mergs, but from the looks of it, Disco's certainly not giving up on Levi. My guess is that they're gunning for the 2 and 3 spots for Conte and Levi (or 1 and 2, if Rasmussen is the one who's tested positive 😉 )
 
jbogner said:
Someone's getting popped from the tour today for doping- the UCI will announce later today. I think they decided to wait until the stage was over to make the announcement. Odds are it's Rasmussen or Soler, as they both were tested in the stage were the incident apparently took place (stage 11).
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It's Moreni from Cofidis.
 
jbogner said:
Someone's getting popped from the tour today for doping- the UCI will announce later today. I think they decided to wait until the stage was over to make the announcement. Odds are it's Rasmussen or Soler, as they both were tested in the stage were the incident apparently took place (stage 11).

I won't ruin today's results for you, Mergs, but from the looks of it, Disco's certainly not giving up on Levi. My guess is that they're gunning for the 2 and 3 spots for Conte and Levi (or 1 and 2, if Rasmussen is the one who's tested positive 😉 )
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You might be onto something JB... he's a slick tactician and he's made faux statements to the press before (in order to feign weakness (while in truth strength was about to show itself).

I'm actually glad Ras was not the one... I'd rather see Conte and Levi crack him legitimately.

And thanks for not spoiling bro! 😉

p.s. with all these big names getting dinged for doping maybe it'll have a lasting cleansing effect on the sport. I still am amazed that the lead GC riders will attempt to dope when they *know* all stage winners get tested automatically.
 
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