cost of college

[qclabrat]

Ok, back to this topic, summer is almost over the time to get the kid to fill out some applications.
Seems like the application process is so much more involved that before and the essay portion holds a lot more weight than I recall.
I'd like her to apply to no more than 8 schools, but she said her friends applied to between 12-20, which sounds kind of nuts in my opinion. Application costs aside, that's got to be significant time involved even with the Common App for some schools.

Also for those who have kids or have majored in Engineering in the past 10 years. Can you do well in an Engineering program with average math grades (no Honors or AP)?

 

[shrpshtr325]

i dont see any reason you cant if you are willing to put the time in to learn the material, you just have to start from nothing instead of having a history with the material.

personally i was ap math and physics going into engineering, but its not a requirement.

 

[qclabrat]

i dont see any reason you cant if you are willing to put the time in to learn the material, you just have to start from nothing instead of having a history with the material.

personally i was ap math and physics going into engineering, but its not a requirement.

What characteristics make a good engineer? I've read the descriptions of each engineering major/career to her and none seem to peak her interest. I'm guessing her interest in engineering stems from the fact that many of her friend are majoring in engineering and also as you mentioned in another forum, is a bit of a solitary occupation, where you don't need as much interaction with people. Based on the curriculum for engineering, do you lose time applying as undecided then declaring the major later? Meaning it become a 5 year major vs four.

 

[shrpshtr325]

first, a little background to understand where my experience is and where my answers are coming from. I went to Stevens Institute of Technology, and graduated in 2012 with my BE in mechanical engineering, finished my masters (also in mechanical engineering) in Dec of 2016 from Drexel (this was work funded).

1) critical thinking skills are probably the most important thing for an engineer to have, but a proficiency with mathematics/physics (how objects interact) is also critical, as is the ability to visualize concepts and put that on paper (well its all digital 3-d now, but similar idea). The ability to put those models into drawings/data packages is something that will be mostly learned on the job later and varies quite substantially from company to company.

2) everything will vary based on the major you decide on, but if your not interested in the topic your not going to stick with it and do the work to get the degree, take a look at what her interests are and see if they line up with any of the major engineering disciplines. If not you can look at the more niche concentrations and try for one of those, but that will potentially limit career options.

3) its not entirely solitary, you do still interact with product teams and other engineers (designers in my case) but its more people with similar mindsets and the ability to think critically versus the average idiot that populates this world these days. (not saying everyone is an idiot, but the idiots are becoming either more common, or more publicized with the internet)

4) yes you can enter engineering school undeclared - engineering without setting back your degree completion, for Stevens you had 3-4 semesters to decide, during that time you are typically taking all the general engineering classes, math, physics, sciences, some electives (humanities, phys ed classes ect ect), after that you will start loosing time. If you go in general undecided you could definitely lose time since the engineering programs typically have their own more rigorous math classes which you would have to take to graduate, so youd be taking double maths if you did that. (however going from engineering to something that accepted the lesser math classes you would likely NOT have to retake maths).

If you have any specific questions about stevens lmk ill do my best to answer them.

 

[JimN]

Also for those who have kids or have majored in Engineering in the past 10 years. Can you do well in an Engineering program with average math grades (no Honors or AP)?

If she doesn't like math, she should not try to get an engineering degree. If she likes math but struggles a bit with it, then she will probably be ok but will have to work harder. I'm now 15 years out of college, but I can't imagine much has changed. Pretty much any engineering degree is going to require 7-8 semesters of math. As Bill said, first year of engineering is pretty much the same no matter what degree you are going for. I declared at the end of my freshmen year, eventhough I still had no idea what I wanted to do when I got out of school. But Sophomore year is when classes for the different majors started to diverge. I think non-engineering students could wait til the end of Sophomore year to declare.

 

[Magic]

I skipped engineering because math.

 

[UtahJoe]

@shrpshtr325 really nailed it....I just wanted to add.....

Also for those who have kids or have majored in Engineering in the past 10 years. Can you do well in an Engineering program with average math grades (no Honors or AP)?

I never actually passed anything above basic math in HS....Failed algebra 1 several times....I hated HS and math (which im sure is the major reason why)...But once I decided that I wanted to be an engineer, I figured out how to get myself thru like 160+ college credits of math. Was never easy for me and I had to study 3 times harder than my natural genius friends....but I wanted to be an engineer so I figured it out. With regards to @shrpshtr325 point #2..... My passion for engineering helped me overcome my sucky math skills. If your daughter has this kind of passion for it, then she can make it happen. Of course what fueled my passion is my love of cars, planes, machines, etc....being around cars my whole life gave me a basis of understanding engineering. Without that love of cars and machines, not sure if I would have been to deadset on this career path. I will also add that my algebra and calc skills were nothing to write home about....I still cant believe I passed diff. eqs....BUT...I had no problems at Thermo, Fluids, machine design where I could visualize the problems. So given some reason for the math, I could deal with it. 🙂

So its possible yes, but for me it was like: IM GOING TO DO THIS JUMP ON MY BIKE NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES.....then I tried it and crashed 20 times, but kept getting back up and wouldnt quit. (I actually never failed a class in college, but thats bc I had to pay for them myself)

 

[ekuhn]

first, a little background to understand where my experience is and where my answers are coming from. I went to Stevens Institute of Technology, and graduated in 2012 with my BE in mechanical engineering, finished my masters (also in mechanical engineering) in Dec of 2016 from Drexel (this was work funded).

1) critical thinking skills are probably the most important thing for an engineer to have, but a proficiency with mathematics/physics (how objects interact) is also critical, as is the ability to visualize concepts and put that on paper (well its all digital 3-d now, but similar idea). The ability to put those models into drawings/data packages is something that will be mostly learned on the job later and varies quite substantially from company to company.

2) everything will vary based on the major you decide on, but if your not interested in the topic your not going to stick with it and do the work to get the degree, take a look at what her interests are and see if they line up with any of the major engineering disciplines. If not you can look at the more niche concentrations and try for one of those, but that will potentially limit career options.

3) its not entirely solitary, you do still interact with product teams and other engineers (designers in my case) but its more people with similar mindsets and the ability to think critically versus the average idiot that populates this world these days. (not saying everyone is an idiot, but the idiots are becoming either more common, or more publicized with the internet)

4) yes you can enter engineering school undeclared - engineering without setting back your degree completion, for Stevens you had 3-4 semesters to decide, during that time you are typically taking all the general engineering classes, math, physics, sciences, some electives (humanities, phys ed classes ect ect), after that you will start loosing time. If you go in general undecided you could definitely lose time since the engineering programs typically have their own more rigorous math classes which you would have to take to graduate, so youd be taking double maths if you did that. (however going from engineering to something that accepted the lesser math classes you would likely NOT have to retake maths).

If you have any specific questions about stevens lmk ill do my best to answer them.

I was an average High School Student top 25% - no where near the top. I graduated Rutgers in 05 with a BS in Mechanical (5 year). Graduated from NJIT in 2012 with my MS in Civil (got while working). I am a project manager/superintendent for a large construction firm.

I agree with everything @shrpshtr325 said above. Engineering minds use critical thinking/logic to develop solutions to figure out problems. Most engineers who I know that did not go into design work became project managers. The critical thinking/logic approach to problem solving fits well in the project manager world.

As far as math goes - I took math classes all the way up to Calc 5 and haven't used it since - not even for my masters.

Rutgers had us take an 1 credit Intro to Engineering Class freshman year. It had lead professors or deans of the department give presentations on what each of the disciplines were and where they could lead you in life. This is where a Mechanical Professor said something along the lines of, Mechanical Engineers build bombs, Civil engineers build targets. That helped pushed me into Mechanical because more moving parts, now professionally, all I do is build targets.

The disciplines with engineering are vast. Think of everything you touch throughout the day. An engineer had something to do with it - lets look at just bikes:

Mechanical Engineer developed the frame and components of a bike
Materials/Possibly Chemical Engineer developed the carbon fiber and resins to make the bike/tires
Computer/Electrical Engineer developed the hardware for the GPS
Software Engineer developed the software for the GPS
Industrial/Production Engineer developed the mass production of the item
All for this Engineer/Construction Project Manager to dream about when stuck at work on lunch.

At 18 it is hard to decide what you want to do for the rest of your life. Taking on an engineering discipline can broaden those options for sure.

 

[Bike N Gear]

Ok, back to this topic, summer is almost over the time to get the kid to fill out some applications.
Seems like the application process is so much more involved that before and the essay portion holds a lot more weight than I recall.
I'd like her to apply to no more than 8 schools, but she said her friends applied to between 12-20, which sounds kind of nuts in my opinion. Application costs aside, that's got to be significant time involved even with the Common App for some schools.

Also for those who have kids or have majored in Engineering in the past 10 years. Can you do well in an Engineering program with average math grades (no Honors or AP)?

The application process was a pain mostly because my son likes to procrastinate on these things and it drove my wife crazy. Common app was fine once it was done, but some schools like to use their own application so you get to fill out the same info over and over. I think some schools just want to weed out applicants so they make their application process more difficult for no apparent reason. I think it was Maryland that required him to type out every class he took going back through the ninth grade with every semester's grades. So basically, he got to retype his transcript despite the fact that they get a copy of the actual transcript. What's the purpose of that?

My son's guidance counselor was great about giving advice on which schools to apply for when. Some you are better off getting your application in ASAP, other's don't matter at all if it doesn't get submitted till January. While we proofread and double checked everything before hitting submit, he did all the work. Guidance counselor said if he isn't ready to fill out an application by himself, he might not be ready for college. I just got stuck filling out the financial aid forms so we could be denied every last penny.

Not sure how much the essay matters, some schools don't use it at all. We were told by someone who reads the essays to try to be original and make sure it is about the student. No essays about "the big game" that you lost, won or couldn't play due to the torn ACL and how much you learned from the experience. They said every high school athlete has that same story and they get tired of reading about it. No Essays about how Grandpa or Mom is a great inspiration, blah, blah, blah. Those essays tend to be all about the accomplishments of someone not applying to the school.

So what we've learned is that while my son was able to fill out 7 applications and get 7 acceptance letters, he still has no clue what he needs to live on his own in a dorm room 350 miles away. Wife and son spent Sunday at BBB and Target and he's clueless. And off he goes in 4 weeks.

As far as Engineering. I went away to school as an Engineering major. My dad was an EE and the only PT job I ever had as a kid was working running blueprints and then as a draftsman thru HS. I hated the classes and changed my major after the first semester. We met a lot of seemingly bright kids during our year of touring colleges and lots of them have changed majors after the first year.

 

[qclabrat]

critical thinking skills are probably the most important thing for an engineer to have, but a proficiency with mathematics/physics (how objects interact) is also critical, as is the ability to visualize concepts and put that on paper (well its all digital 3-d now, but similar idea). The ability to put those models into drawings/data packages is something that will be mostly learned on the job later and varies quite substantially from company to company.

I'm actually doing an MBA at a Steven's as I'm seeing some downtime at the moment, also did my graduate work in MIS at NYU, both paid by where I've worked. Your point about critical thinking is what bothers me the most, cause that's not her at all. Engineers I believe have a natural curiosity of how things work and have interests in making it better. I started school as an Aerospace Engineering major but I knew after the second year I'd be better in physical sciences, so I know about the curriculum a bit. She's decent at math, having received a near perfect SAT score, but not good in applying to practical use as she didn't do well for that reason last year in Honors Physics.

My passion for engineering helped me overcome my sucky math skills. If your daughter has this kind of passion for it, then she can make it happen.

Magic word "passion" and I always ask her about what it is about engineering for why she is so set on it? I'd love for her to get into engineering, but at the same time want to make sure it is something she really wants to do. I sometimes regret not sticking with engineering as it seems junior year is where you get past the fundamentals and begin to apply the concepts. I also really struggled with math and minoring in Astrophysics also really escalated the my stuckiness as well.

Engineering minds use critical thinking/logic to develop solutions to figure out problems. Most engineers who I know that did not go into design work became project managers. The critical thinking/logic approach to problem solving fits well in the project manager world.
At 18 it is hard to decide what you want to do for the rest of your life. Taking on an engineering discipline can broaden those options for sure.

Couldn't agree with you more, 18 and trying figure out life is not easy. She was considering Architecture, but probably because we thought it was a good option given her interest in art and engineering. But after a summer at Pratt, and the criticism she dealt with from the professors, it may have turned her off. Going in undecided may be the best for her as she'll start to experience college level math and sciences and figure out whether engineering is an option.

Has anyone here started off at a liberal arts school to transfer out to another school with an engineering program? I guess the safe bet is the find schools with engineering programs and apply as undecided.

 

[shrpshtr325]

Stevens (and Drexel) accept very few transfer credits from outside schools for their engineering programs, and none of the core classes can be filled in with transfer credits, I would imagine most engineering schools are similar, so she would end up transfering and then having to retake many of those classes.

 

[qclabrat]

The application process was a pain mostly because my son likes to procrastinate on these things and it drove my wife crazy. Common app was fine once it was done, but some schools like to use their own application so you get to fill out the same info over and over. I think some schools just want to weed out applicants so they make their application process more difficult for no apparent reason. I think it was Maryland that required him to type out every class he took going back through the ninth grade with every semester's grades. So basically, he got to retype his transcript despite the fact that they get a copy of the actual transcript. What's the purpose of that?

My son's guidance counselor was great about giving advice on which schools to apply for when. Some you are better off getting your application in ASAP, other's don't matter at all if it doesn't get submitted till January. While we proofread and double checked everything before hitting submit, he did all the work. Guidance counselor said if he isn't ready to fill out an application by himself, he might not be ready for college. I just got stuck filling out the financial aid forms so we could be denied every last penny.

Not sure how much the essay matters, some schools don't use it at all. We were told by someone who reads the essays to try to be original and make sure it is about the student. No essays about "the big game" that you lost, won or couldn't play due to the torn ACL and how much you learned from the experience. They said every high school athlete has that same story and they get tired of reading about it. No Essays about how Grandpa or Mom is a great inspiration, blah, blah, blah. Those essays tend to be all about the accomplishments of someone not applying to the school.

So what we've learned is that while my son was able to fill out 7 applications and get 7 acceptance letters, he still has no clue what he needs to live on his own in a dorm room 350 miles away. Wife and son spent Sunday at BBB and Target and he's clueless. And off he goes in 4 weeks.

As far as Engineering. I went away to school as an Engineering major. My dad was an EE and the only PT job I ever had as a kid was working running blueprints and then as a draftsman thru HS. I hated the classes and changed my major after the first semester. We met a lot of seemingly bright kids during our year of touring colleges and lots of them have changed majors after the first year.

Good luck, sounds stressful
We've been told that the essays are now about as important as the SAT or ACT, cause who can't get near perfect scores anymore with the right coaching. This Spring we'll dump some cash to someone to help her with applications. We gave her a dollar figure to work with and sending her scholarship and aid info to fill out. More she can get, she'll have more flexibility on applications. Our guidance dept was pretty much unless to us in college prep. They start much too late in getting the kids ready, I don't really blame them, cause they are severally understaffed. My younger goes to a different HS, and they prep them on what they need to do from Freshman year. Though it's only to not screw up your grades early, they put it out there for awareness.

 

[JimN]

You don't need an engineering degree to become a lion tamer:

 

[qclabrat]

Stevens (and Drexel) accept very few transfer credits from outside schools for their engineering programs, and none of the core classes can be filled in with transfer credits, I would imagine most engineering schools are similar, so she would end up transfering and then having to retake many of those classes.

I forgot about mentioning the 3-2 engineering degree options. You get a math or science degree in the 3 years school then the final 2 years at an engineering school. I did that and gave me the option to back out easily. But some of the better engineering schools like WashU, Cornell and Columbia, require you to reapply to each school. But minimum GPA is pretty demanding. The biggest downside is paying for another year of school, which can be significant, though going to a state school for the first 3 years could make it a wash.

 

[Bike N Gear]

My wife went to her college orientation as a Business Major. When she found out she'd need to take calculus she changed to a Communications major (her mother wanted to kill her). She's been a Construction Project Manager for a huge engineering firm for 23 years now, so who knows where you'll end up.

 

[JimN]

My brother has a B.S. in Aerospace Engineering and his first job out of college was working as a financial analyst for GE. He's moved through a couple of smaller companies but is basically a salesman now, selling some type of mutual fund/retirement plan or something. I don't really know what he does.

 

[Blair]

Anything in that book for children of bicycle shop owners?

For business owners the best thing to do is get your income as low as you can in the tax years that the schools look at for both fafsa and scholarships since you can control what that is. Or expense your own scholarship, lots of ways to spin it through corporations. I have a friend who lost his job and ended up qualifying for more aid than his salary, great timing.

 

[Bike N Gear]

For business owners the best thing to do is get your income as low as you can in the tax years that the schools look at for both fafsa and scholarships since you can control what that is. Or expense your own scholarship, lots of ways to spin it through corporations. I have a friend who lost his job and ended up qualifying for more aid than his salary, great timing.

Comes with the job. Sadly (?) we have too many liquid assets to qualify for any aid. I'd really rather buy a Singer 911 than pay for college, but maybe my son will buy me one when he graduates.

 

[Blair]

Comes with the job. Sadly (?) we have too many liquid assets to qualify for any aid. I'd really rather buy a Singer 911 than pay for college, but maybe my son will buy me one when he graduates.

My point was don’t pay yourself in the qualifying year for taxable income purposes, then double it Jan 1 of the next year. Little income but too many assets is contradictory no?

 

[Bike N Gear]

My point was don’t pay yourself in the qualifying year for taxable income purposes, then double it Jan 1 of the next year. Little income but too many assets is contradictory no?

Not if it didn't come from me.