Tariffs...what to make of them.

  1. October 1987 (Black Monday Era)
    • On October 19, 1987, the NASDAQ dropped significantly (though the Dow’s 22.6% crash is more famous, the NASDAQ fell around 11% that day). The prior day, October 16, saw a drop exceeding 5%. While exact daily NASDAQ data for consecutive 5% drops is less documented than the Dow’s, the aftermath is telling: the market stabilized somewhat in the next month (November 1987 saw volatility but no sustained collapse), and over the next year, it recovered gradually, gaining roughly 15% by late 1988 as the economy avoided a deep recession.
  2. Dot-Com Crash (2000-2002)
    • During the dot-com bubble burst, the NASDAQ saw multiple steep declines. For instance, in April 2000, it experienced sharp drops, including a week with two days of near or exceeding 5% losses (e.g., April 3 and 4, 2000). The month after (May 2000) saw continued volatility with a net decline of about 5-10%, and the year after (April 2001) was deep in bear market territory, down over 50% from its peak as the tech bubble deflated fully.
  3. 2008 Financial Crisis
    • October 2008 was brutal. The NASDAQ dropped 9.14% on September 29, followed by further declines, including days exceeding 5% (e.g., October 7 and 9). The next month (November 2008) saw a partial rebound of about 10% as markets digested the initial panic, but the year after (October 2009) was up significantly—around 40%—as stimulus and recovery took hold post-March 2009 lows.
  4. 2020 COVID-19 Crash
    • March 11, 2020, saw a 4.7% drop, followed by a 9.4% plunge on March 12. While March 11 was just shy of 5%, March 12 and 16 (another 5%+ day) were close enough to consider. The next month (April 2020) s

I have no doubt it will eventually be back - the major difference I see is the self inflicted pain this time around.

Oct 87 - basically the coming of age of computer based trading created a storm - well it probably created the rise, so why not create the fall
dot.com - Enron was putting on a show, every other company started booking sales based on a customer's perceived interest, otherwise they were falling behind.
2008 - well, if you give mortgages to people at 6% so they can afford it, and raise it to 12% in 5 years, eventually there are going to be a bunch of people defaulting. duh - the big short
COVID - the thought was the economy was going to stop. it just shifted. many people were still working, the gvt was giving out money to keep people employed. we figured it out rather quickly

this time - "there are going to be sacrifices to create gain" - i'm even ok with the idea of I may have a little less, but many will have more. And those many would be the people who are struggling, not in the market - but how are food and gas prices going to come down? A reliable used car? ok, if it doesn't come down, how are we getting more money into the hands of those who need it? higher min wage? more skilled work?

If this is prolonged (well it isn't going to be more than 3 years and 9 months) what happens when AIG starts to have multiple bad quarters?
What if a pension fund collapses?

I was in the market during all of these.

I just put a few shekels in the sp500!
I have a strong dislike for Trump and Elon, obviously. The market is just noise right now. The SPY instill only down 16-17% from all time highs. It's technically not even in a bear market yet. The nasdaq(riskier) is but barely at 22-23%. I'm cautiously trying to be optimistic and think that these tariffs are an attempt to get rid of tariffs globally to promote free trade but Trump being an asshat I am very cautious on that optimism. I have maxed out I bonds for the last years. The is no downside risk, only missing out on gains. I'm ok with some money being there for now.
 
Markets weren't really flat. They broke down premarket just before 8am. Spy was at 512 and called to almost 519 at the open then sold of ALL day finishing at 502 at end of day. Yes, typically market mean revert after such big moves. I'll hop on when this squeeze gets going(not right away as that's dangerous with anything, even shares.We haven't seen " blood in the streets" yet. EVERYTHING needs to simultaneously sell off hard for a bottom to start. Bitcoin was up yesterday. When this happens I think a small relief move in a week or two is more likely than a bottom being in. I'll start adding back into my annuity if we see six under 5000.
Never said market was flat. It opened down big.

I said from your post to gocks post it was flat. From 10 whatever ish to 3 whatever ish, with fluctuation in between.
 
Russia, Hungary, Belarus and North Korea are all allies and they get no tariffs. Why? Because that would make Putin angry. Every thing trump does is on a checklist of things Putin wants.
Atleast two of those countries have sanctions on them so tarrifs not needed. The only thing we get from russia is metal, fetilizer and niclear fuel so buying it cheap is good I guess?
 
Atleast two of those countries have sanctions on them so tarrifs not needed. The only thing we get from russia is metal, fetilizer and niclear fuel so buying it cheap is good I guess?
Metal? You mean like the stuff trump just put tariffs on for the rest of the world? Trump, make Russia great again.
 
Why would you be in anything as risky as the stock market near or during retirement? STABLE VALUE FUNDS.
We need to kick into our Vanguard accts to bring our tax bill down by April 15th. (How's that for timing?!) Amazed how much we lost in 3 days and looking into the Stable Value Funds. Finger's crossed. Thanks DT
 
But if you are close to retiring or already retired it hurts. If you are in you 45 or younger you can keep putting money in your 401k which you would be dollar cost averaging on the way down the market has always held up over time. This is different than 911, dot com, 08 crisis and covid. This was self- inflected by one person.
Oh yes - we're definitely in new territory and I'm sure this will adversely affect soon-to-be and recent retirees, although most financial analysts say you should be starting to divest from volatile holdings to more stable types as you get closer to retirement. Something I've been admittedly lazy about in my mid-50s, so I pretty much have no choice but to stay put, wait it out and hope as my retirement plans/hopes are another 6 years away.

Provided self-inflected job stress doesn't unalive me first...

The self-inflicted part of these new taxes does add to the unpredictability of the situation. But it also means that as quickly as they were added, they could be removed... by the current administration or the next. That lack of consistency is also part of why the markets are tanking. The part that really doesn't make sense is the manufacturing jobs Trump wants to bring back are jobs we don't have the workforce to do. Especially when there is a focused effort to remove the part of the population that is possibly willing to do those jobs. The result will be inflation the likes of which we haven't seen in decades.
 
the major difference I see is the self inflicted pain this time around.
I mean really... That is the massive difference this time and any other market downturn... This was 100% done by a single person, using a blunt instrument, on purpose... Essentially overnight..... With that in mind, what is stability going to look like moving forward... Does anyone actually know?

Like I said before... Forget cars... Thats nothing.. Car production moves around like the wind... But shit... As absurd as it is to thing we're going back to making 10% of the temu/Amazon junk we buy....... We don't make the raw materials in anything close to a quantity that we need... How's our textile industry... Lumber industry... Mining industry... We import the majority of the crude oil we use... And yes, that can be changed but that is an utterly massive investment.

I see hyundai has lined up to kiss the ring, but hyundai already builds most of its us market cars here
 
... We import the majority of the crude oil we use....

This does not check out, multiple AIs disagree (not dunking on u, as always I just try and stick to facts):

———————-

Based on the information available up to April 5, 2025, the split of crude oil used by the USA, considering both imports and domestic production, can be estimated as follows:

Domestic Production:

The U.S. is a major crude oil producer. In the week ending March 28, 2025, the U.S. crude oil field production was approximately 13.58 million barrels per day (bbl/d).
For January 2025, the total U.S. crude oil production was 407.54 million barrels, which averages to roughly 13.15 million bbl/d.
In 2023, the average U.S. crude oil production was 12.9 million bbl/d.
Imports:

The U.S. also imports a significant amount of crude oil to meet the demands of its refineries. For the week ending March 28, 2025, U.S. crude oil imports were 6.466 million bbl/d.
In 2023, the U.S. imported an average of 6.48 million bbl/d of crude oil.

———————

~13.5 milly barrels domestic
~6.5 imported
~20 total

13.5/20 = 67.5% domestic, the majority…put another way, for every barrel we import, we produce 2 domestically roughly)
 
The oil import thing has a lot to do with the refineries, many of which were set up to refine heavier types of crude than the US produces. Because of that, we also export a fair amount of crude as well - averaging about 4.2M barrels per day during 2024. All of that refining capacity of cheap oil also helps the US to be the largest exporter of refined oil products in the world. Granted, reciprocal tariffs by importing countries may put a dent into that...
 
Barrons, The Economist, Cramer ultra doomsday this weekend. VIX elevated. New 52 week lows spiking.

Put/call ratio too tame tho which gives me pause. And overall sentiment, while as negative as it’s been in a while, doesn’t feel like it’s at doomsday levels yet.

And if you believe in patterns, history not matching but rhyming, bla bla bla, this table suggests we’re closer to the bottom than not. Doesn’t mean we can’t go a bit lower first, but could be getting close. All it will take is some positive news around tariffs and that could be rocket fuel.

20CB734F-232D-44E6-88F6-09202DE6E647.jpeg
 
For domestic oil to be profitable on a old well at $32 a barrel but a newly drilled well at $62 a barrel. Source the Statista.
That’s primarily due to the cost associated w/ standing up a new well.

Kinda like a fully paid off rental property throws off more cash than a just purchased one that has a mortgage, all other things being equal.
 
All it will take is some positive news around tariffs and that could be rocket fuel.
That assumes the market will believe the good news is forever. We might hit a bottom, but I don't see anything causing a huge jump for a while. The guy changes his mind every time the wind blows.
 
This does not check out, multiple AIs disagree (not dunking on u, as always I just try and stick to facts):

———————-

Based on the information available up to April 5, 2025, the split of crude oil used by the USA, considering both imports and domestic production, can be estimated as follows:

Domestic Production:

The U.S. is a major crude oil producer. In the week ending March 28, 2025, the U.S. crude oil field production was approximately 13.58 million barrels per day (bbl/d).
For January 2025, the total U.S. crude oil production was 407.54 million barrels, which averages to roughly 13.15 million bbl/d.
In 2023, the average U.S. crude oil production was 12.9 million bbl/d.
Imports:

The U.S. also imports a significant amount of crude oil to meet the demands of its refineries. For the week ending March 28, 2025, U.S. crude oil imports were 6.466 million bbl/d.
In 2023, the U.S. imported an average of 6.48 million bbl/d of crude oil.

———————

~13.5 milly barrels domestic
~6.5 imported
~20 total

13.5/20 = 67.5% domestic, the majority…put another way, for every barrel we import, we produce 2 domestically roughly)
What @Ian F mentioned... We produce tons of crude, but we export alot of it as it's harder to refine here... Its cheaper for us to import the lighter crude and refine that...
 
That’s primarily due to the cost associated w/ standing up a new well.

Kinda like a fully paid off rental property throws off more cash than a just purchased one that has a mortgage, all other things being equal.
It was just my 2 cents. Besides being a plumber have worker in Oil Refineries and Nuclear Power.
 
Barrons, The Economist, Cramer ultra doomsday this weekend. VIX elevated. New 52 week lows spiking.

Put/call ratio too tame tho which gives me pause. And overall sentiment, while as negative as it’s been in a while, doesn’t feel like it’s at doomsday levels yet.

And if you believe in patterns, history not matching but rhyming, bla bla bla, this table suggests we’re closer to the bottom than not. Doesn’t mean we can’t go a bit lower first, but could be getting close. All it will take is some positive news around tariffs and that could be rocket fuel.

View attachment 258503
So today I remembered that I need a new set of summer tires for my wife's car.... So my first thought... Many car tires are made here as shipping tires sucks... But tires use roughly 30% natural rubber... Which we don't make here... And plenty of synthetic rubber... Which we also don't make here... What will that do to the price of a domestically made tire? I can't say with any level of certainty... So does firestone know right now where it's buying its next cargo ship full of rubber from? I have no idea... But I can't see how this is good for economic growth
 
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