Dude, this is the Internet! What the hell else do we have to talk about? Better than whining about race result, no?
USA Cycling to change class structure next year?
- Thread starter jbogner
- Start date
Dude, this is the Internet! What the hell else do we have to talk about? Better than whining about race result, no?
NJ-XC-Justin
KY-DH-Freddy
Dude, this is the Internet! What the hell else do we have to talk about? Better than whining about race result, no?
What race results?
BiknBen
Well-Known Member
I guess it is about time I chime in. I've raced all three disciplines for a while. There are pros and cons to each system. Each could use some adjusting. The USCF has been at war with itself for many years. The pool of racers are growing older and louder. There is poor turnout of younger racers. The USCF is trying to come up with a system that satisfies the older experienced racers who make up the majority of the membership while still attracting new racers.
The Road Racing system is the oldest. Originally, you went from Cat5 to Cat1. Acquire a minimum number of points (results) and you can move up. This was adequate for most events. In the largest races, the fields filled and people were turned away. The promoters added or divided the fields to allow more racers and generate more revenue.
The racers began demanding this divided system at more races and now we have mayhem. Racers still enter events based on the original Cat5 thru 1 system. Additionally, any Cat4 or above can enter an age-based event (typically, 35+ & 45+). Now we have fields that are too small. The same members that demanded divided fields are now crying because the turnout is too small.
IMO, there are too many age groups/categories in the MTB races. You end up racing against too few other people. I used to joke about how my Expert class was like the race of attrition. The finishing places were determined after a lap. Then, you just hoped to make it to the finish without a problem.
OTOH, the MTB promoters are designing courses that do not accommodate large fields. That 100 feet of gravel road before the single-track isn't enough. Then the racers cry about having to race through grass fields and demand more and more single-track. Basically, the crying never ends.
The Road Racing system is the oldest. Originally, you went from Cat5 to Cat1. Acquire a minimum number of points (results) and you can move up. This was adequate for most events. In the largest races, the fields filled and people were turned away. The promoters added or divided the fields to allow more racers and generate more revenue.
The racers began demanding this divided system at more races and now we have mayhem. Racers still enter events based on the original Cat5 thru 1 system. Additionally, any Cat4 or above can enter an age-based event (typically, 35+ & 45+). Now we have fields that are too small. The same members that demanded divided fields are now crying because the turnout is too small.
IMO, there are too many age groups/categories in the MTB races. You end up racing against too few other people. I used to joke about how my Expert class was like the race of attrition. The finishing places were determined after a lap. Then, you just hoped to make it to the finish without a problem.
OTOH, the MTB promoters are designing courses that do not accommodate large fields. That 100 feet of gravel road before the single-track isn't enough. Then the racers cry about having to race through grass fields and demand more and more single-track. Basically, the crying never ends.
IMO, there are too many age groups/categories in the MTB races. You end up racing against too few other people. I used to joke about how my Expert class was like the race of attrition. The finishing places were determined after a lap. Then, you just hoped to make it to the finish without a problem.
OTOH, the MTB promoters are designing courses that do not accommodate large fields. That 100 feet of gravel road before the single-track isn't enough. Then the racers cry about having to race through grass fields and demand more and more single-track. Basically, the crying never ends.
i totally agree with you here on MTB races - especially the on course design. i understand people want to race on singletrack, but it doesnt make for fun racing all the time. the few races i have done, i have gotten real frustrated when passing. i'm generally a chill guy out in the field - i know im not winning anything (i race to compare myself and to just be a part of the fun) so i generally step out of the way whenever someone comes up on me...
that said, if someone is in my way - its kind of annoying to get them out of the way - especially if racing with a SS on a climb - if someone's on your tooker, move it out of the way!
i guess i look at a good race course requireing some fireroad/open spots. dont get me wrong, i love riding singletrack as much as the next guy - but i like riding it alone or with a small group, not racing with 200+ people. maybe that's why i havent raced so much lately... paying a bunch of scratch to ride a local trail that i can normally ride for free, with it being as crowded as it can get just isnt worth the money. i miss the group atmosphere, but not that much.
the MTB classification is too thin - especially when they start separating out classes based on your bike choice. i'm all about tracking SSer's, heck, if you want to track yourself against guys on a FS, HT, or 29er, go ahead, but a whole class for a bike? that's too much IMHO just because someone picked a different tool to race on - and my last 12 hour event was on a SS.
they don't set a class based on bike choice in road - they shouldn't do it in MTB.
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OTOH, the MTB promoters are designing courses that do not accommodate large fields. That 100 feet of gravel road before the single-track isn't enough. Then the racers cry about having to race through grass fields and demand more and more single-track. Basically, the crying never ends.
I feel NJ/NY single-track is what makes the H2H series better than others. The additional age groups this year were not added to make it fair, but give racers a better experience spreading out and doing their thing. The age groups for women are there to encourage participation. The promoters work very hard each year to bring you the best experience they think is possible, and we will continue to work at that regardless of what USACycling does. I think USACycling is doing the same thing in their own way.
I am open for new ideas, and do not have a set idea for women. In the last year and a half, I have seen quite an increase in women's participation which is great. It seems like the over 40 group is the fastest. We will adjust as needed and listen to all concerns. However I do not see more classes for women in the near future. We did that once and it did not work well, with many women discouraged, not challenged and quitting. IMO, variety and field depth can feed the spirit of racing in a positive way.
Steve Vai
Endurance Guy: Tolerates most of us.
I've been saying that right there for YEARS!! Singlespeed is a CHOICE not a race class!! I don't get my own class for having a 29'er do I?
The trials scene went through this a few years back and it killed the sport in the US almost all together. To split the 10 trials guys that show up to an event into classes and then bike categories is retarded. There is no competition that way, and thus there is no ability for the US to compete at a World Cup level.
XC is going through the same thing now, I think overall it will have more a negative effect than good. It doesn't matter what bike you're on. Take notice of how many different bikes rip by you at the next race, you'll be surprised what people can be fast on.
Singlespeeds don't need their own class, just race with the rest of us, if you need some reassurance about them not being competitive against a geary consider this. The LaLonde brothers (fellow Fisher 29'er riders) won the US national 24 hour title on singlespeeds, there is no singlespeed class. Marko also won the US national cyclocross championship on a singlespeed, albeit there is a class he did not enter it, he won against gears. They both also compete in Pro/Elite cross-country and win a whole lot of races against some of the best riders in the US, who of course have gears. It's inspiring. Albeit, I don't see me giving up gears any time soon, and if I did, I'd stay in the same class I'm in now, I think I'd get my butt kicked about the same...
-Jim.
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While I agree in principal, 99% of the guys racing singlespeed class in our local races and series are not ever going to move beyond being local sport and expert class racers, so the dedicated class gives them a fun way to compete against a likeminded group of nutjobs who eschew gears.
Nothing's forcing singlespeeders to register in singlespeed class- they're making the choice to register in that SS open class rather than in their age group. Most of them would otherwise be in the already crowded 30-39 age groups, just lengthening that line of guys walking through the technical singletrack, so what's the harm in breaking them out into their own class?When the fields get too big in our local races, people get frustrated and turned off from racing, so we have to find some sort of arbitrary way of keep the fields manageable and separated (ie under 50 people).
That's the real issue at the core of it all- how do we separate the folks racing for fun from the racers really looking to move up to national and international competition, and create a structure that serves both types well? It's going to require some sort of bell-curve structure that cuts down classes on the top and bottom of the bell curve but parcels out the middle of that curve into manageable chunks...
that is tough issue -
when i have used my SS in a race, i have signed both as a SSer class and also just in the sport class... the first few times as an SS class racer because i was real psyched about riding a SS because i just built it up. now i see it as a tool, and another way to have fun on the bike. sometimes i wish they would just have the age and sport criteria, but with next to your 'racing criteria' info, the type of bike you rode... not as a category, but just "listed" as relevant info... you could even go so far as 29er rigid SS in all seriousness. if there is some crazy technical course, and someone pulls out a good placing on that kind of bike, its a cool bragging right... but i dont think a class criteria.
so i guess we could include more info in our results... but just not info that has a priority to it, more of an FYI-tone to it.
so if i race in my 30 - 35 y/o sport class i can see how i do, and if someone creams me by an hour on a rigid singlespeed i can see that. heck, maybe even list their favorite color if they want... but i wouldnt be racing against that... if that makes any sense.
NJMX835
New Member
It seems to me like they want to do is cram alot of the classes together, either by age, ability or both.
What they are missing is that nobody is going to pay $75 to race DH when they don't have a prayer of more than a mid-pack finish.
If that's what they are doing, all they are going to get out of it is more people just freeriding instead.
What they are missing is that nobody is going to pay $75 to race DH when they don't have a prayer of more than a mid-pack finish.
If that's what they are doing, all they are going to get out of it is more people just freeriding instead.
F
FallGirl1430
Guest
Nothing left ...
This is horrible!
If I understand this correctly they are getting rid of the Semi Pro class, thats it, I have nothing left to race for. There goes my multi year deal with Specialized, my long and star studded career is in the pooper
Yep, name withheld ...
This is horrible!
If I understand this correctly they are getting rid of the Semi Pro class, thats it, I have nothing left to race for. There goes my multi year deal with Specialized, my long and star studded career is in the pooper
Yep, name withheld ...
BiknBen
Well-Known Member
pixychick said:
Don't take my statement the wrong way. I did not intend to direct it at any race, region, or promoter. I love single-track too.
The promoters are being put in a really hard position. Include too much tight trail and people scream about not being able to pass. Give them passing lanes and they complain about racing in meadows of grass. The promoters can't win. During all this, the racers demand more and more classes which means more medals, payouts, results, etc. I simply think people complain too much.
No matter what the USCF changes, racers will complain. Nothing has been determined yet and they are already complaining. I say stop trying to accommodate every racer's wish list. Decrease the number of fields. Maybe Juniors, 18-39, and 40+. Widen the starting areas and let these guys thin out before hitting the trail. Only pay out to the Pro field. Give medals to everyone else. Make it easier for the promoter to manage. Allow them to actually make money.
BTW: Since getting a SS, I've raced in the SS class. The first race I did in that class, they lumped us together with the gearies. The course did not work for the large field and it caused issues. Since then, I raced in the SS class. In the last '07 race, there were only 5 Expert SS racers. It was boring. I didn't see another SS for 3/4 of the race. At LM, there were 14 of us. It seemed just right and competition was fierce. Every race is different. Maybe I'll race in the regular age class just to get on Jimv's good side.
keithsly
New Member
One thing that does happen on the road is certain type of equipment is barred from events based on the event. For example there is a TT that is run in Flanders that forbids Aerobars or use the example of trying to race a bike with a freewheel and brakes on the TRACK (that WILL NOT Happen)...The argument about a 29er or SS is like trying to compare an Orange to a Peach just because they are both close in color....Deciding to race a 29er holds Jim's argument of equipment choice. I being a SS rider from back in the day and yes raced against guys on geared bikes back when the MidAtlantic Series (The year was 2000) was mostly in NJ and run by Sarah Frost I happen to agree with USCF. Actually I remember racing the Allamuchy MTB TT on my SS and hearing guys complain that the SS riders shouldn't be lumped in with the field and it wasn't fair.... I asked them "Fair to who??" .... I got 5th that day !! Because essentially if they are trying to make the fields more competative then why not lump all SS together and have the age groups battle it out.... Let the SSers have their day in the SUN !! I also wonder if USCF is going to have someone who handles upgrades ?? Cause that's a whole other subject you guys should wonder about ??
One last thought....... Some of the most difficult road races I've been in have been Masters (35+) Class.