Training thread

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Dajerseyrat

Well-Known Member
So I'm gonna try and keep this on a serious note. I have legitimate training questions.
I'm a large guy that lost over 75lbs dropping from 300lbs to 225lbs and began mountain biking again. I absolutely love it and forgot how much I missed it.
I can hold my own with most casual riders of my age group and some younger and consider myself in pretty good shape and of mediocre skill level. But when we went riding Chimney rock with sharpshooter and another guy with a rigid single speed(Scott perhaps?) I felt like I never rode before. They made the climbing look so easy where I struggled like an infant. I wanted to quit biking at that very moment..lol
My question is, how much a a difference does the power to weight ratio make? Like can I ever be as fast as a much lighter guy?
I know I must be at a huge disadvantage being 225lbs and riding with guys that are 155lbs to 165lbs as they have to pull much less weight uphill it's simply physics.
Realistically my frame size dictates that I could never be sub 200lbs perhaps I could starve myself down to 205 at best but I would lose a lot of muscle in the process.
So is there anything I could do to get faster going uphill besides losing weight? And I'm curious if a guy 155lbs put on a weighted vest making him 225lbs would he be significantly slower thereby leveling the playing field? Or does it simply come down to conditioning and skill???
 
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Paul H

Fearless OOS Poser
Demo a lighter XC hardtail and the ride same trail and find out for yourself.
My wimpy legs can feel the difference even at a 5lb difference.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Certainly conditioning and skill (cause with skill comes less of a requirement for power)
go ride with @ReggieHammond - he can show you how the big guys get it done.

how to get there?
Probably a training plan - while some say "just ride more" - then "just ride harder" - i think some structure helps.
It also doesn't just happen. the gains come in plateaus - which you have probably experienced in the gym, or with the weight loss.

Those two you rode with are both very fast, and young. i keep trying to spike their water when i ride with them, but they are onto me.
 

Pearl

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
Weight is everything, example:

Using 300w to move 185 pound rider uphill vs using 300w to move 150 pound rider uphill, the lighter rider is going to go faster uphill.

On flats, this is not as noticeable, but once the terrain points slightly up, it's going to be tilted towards the lighter rider.

In terms of mountain biking, skills do play a large roll in technical areas and how to apply the power to the pedals. In MTB racing, fitness (in my opinion) is enough to make a difference over tech skills, to a certain extent. Very often a roadie can jump on a mountain bike and do pretty damn well because they already have a huge engine. The 30 seconds a skilled MTB racer would make up a rock garden would/could get nullified on a fire road climb.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
Weight is everything, example:

Using 300w to move 185 pound rider uphill vs using 300w to move 150 pound rider uphill, the lighter rider is going to go faster uphill.

On flats, this is not as noticeable, but once the terrain points slightly up, it's going to be tilted towards the lighter rider.

In terms of mountain biking, skills do play a large roll in technical areas and how to apply the power to the pedals. In MTB racing, fitness (in my opinion) is enough to make a difference over tech skills, to a certain extent. Very often a roadie can jump on a mountain bike and do pretty damn well because they already have a huge engine. The 30 seconds a skilled MTB racer would make up a rock garden would/could get nullified on a fire road climb.

Sure - looking at 225lbs, going to 220 isn't a huge advantage, looking at numbers..

Same 300W turns into (300/225) = 1.33 w/lb 300/220 = 1.36 w/lb

about a 2% improvement in the ratio. this doesn't = a 2% improvement in speed tho.

looks like @daRat has the power part - can do the short hammer. just need to extend that into longer periods of applying it
(higher average power?)

weighing in a little less saves energy also. so the 5/225 improvement would help over the duration of the ride.

question is, "is 2% significant, vs the 75lbs already lost?" i dunno.

from last year's experience, i felt great down 10% made a huge difference. training for an endurance event didn't hurt either.
as i took 13% off my 5k time.
 

Mtbdog

Well-Known Member
So I'm gonna try and keep this on a serious note. I have legitimate training questions.
I'm a large guy that lost over 75lbs dropping from 300lbs to 225lbs and began mountain biking again. I absolutely love it and forgot how much I missed it.
I can hold my own with most casual riders of my age group and some younger and consider myself in pretty good shape and of mediocre skill level. But when we went riding Chimney rock with sharpshooter and another guy with a rigid single speed(Scott perhaps?) I felt like I never rode before. They made the climbing look so easy where I struggled like an infant. I wanted to quit biking at that very moment..lol
My question is, how much a a difference does the power to weight ratio make? Like can I ever be as fast as a much lighter guy?
I know I must be at a huge disadvantage being 225lbs and riding with guys that are 155lbs to 165lbs as they have to pull much less weight uphill it's simply physics.
Realistically my frame size dictates that I could never be sub 200lbs perhaps I could starve myself down to 205 at best but I would lose a lot of muscle in the process.
So is there anything I could do to get faster going uphill besides losing weight? And I'm curious if a guy 155lbs put on a weighted vest making him 225lbs would he be significantly slower thereby leveling the playing field? Or does it simply come down to conditioning and skill???
Take a look at the podium for the beginner class at this past Short Track race , that should answer any questions on size and biking ability.
 

rick81721

Lothar
Weight is everything, example:

Using 300w to move 185 pound rider uphill vs using 300w to move 150 pound rider uphill, the lighter rider is going to go faster uphill.

On flats, this is not as noticeable, but once the terrain points slightly up, it's going to be tilted towards the lighter rider.

In terms of mountain biking, skills do play a large roll in technical areas and how to apply the power to the pedals. In MTB racing, fitness (in my opinion) is enough to make a difference over tech skills, to a certain extent. Very often a roadie can jump on a mountain bike and do pretty damn well because they already have a huge engine. The 30 seconds a skilled MTB racer would make up a rock garden would/could get nullified on a fire road climb.

Def truth here, at least climbing. Today, in terrible climbing shape after 3 months riding in flatland, and not even trying hard, I set PRs on Lindbergh climb segments. Probably down 10 lbs from previous PRs.
 

pooriggy

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
we went riding Chimney rock with sharpshooter and another guy with a rigid single speed(Scott perhaps?) I felt like I never rode before.

CR is a hard place to mtb because the rocks are football/basketball size, some of these sections make for a raw trail with a lot of feedback which makes it difficult to control the bike, add in elevation and it can be very daunting. The best way to get better riding rocks is to ride rocks and work at getting more comfortable, its not easy, its counter intuitive to relax when you and bike are getting knocked around. Also improving your fitness level will help on the climbs, dealing with a technical uphill requires more fitness, since you have to climb and weave through rocks to find the best line.

My question is, how much a a difference does the power to weight ratio make? Like can I ever be as fast as a much lighter guy?
As Pearl mentioned, weight to pwr ration is very important, it will be extremely difficult to be as fast uphill as a much lighter guy. But honestly this should be the furthest thing from your mind. Don't think in terms of getting up as fast as someone else, focus on getting up the hill without dabbing or dying at the top, which will mean backing off the pace and taking it slow and steady.

Look at your training with the goal of getting more fit, xc mtbing is more fun when you are in good shape because you can do more with less effort. If you race, do the best you can, its about you pushing yourself, don't be concerned with where you place or who beats you, again the goal is to become more fit. Gradually losing weight and changing eating habits takes time, give it time. Keep it fun and stay in it for the long haul.
 

Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
Weight is everything, example:

Using 300w to move 185 pound rider uphill vs using 300w to move 150 pound rider uphill, the lighter rider is going to go faster uphill.

On flats, this is not as noticeable, but once the terrain points slightly up, it's going to be tilted towards the lighter rider.

In terms of mountain biking, skills do play a large roll in technical areas and how to apply the power to the pedals. In MTB racing, fitness (in my opinion) is enough to make a difference over tech skills, to a certain extent. Very often a roadie can jump on a mountain bike and do pretty damn well because they already have a huge engine. The 30 seconds a skilled MTB racer would make up a rock garden would/could get nullified on a fire road climb.
Hmmmm. I’ll agree to disagree. I used the weight excuse a lot. My ftp isn’t great and an example...last weekend I did a 1 hour climb at the beginning of stoopid 50. I am 195lb currently and stuck 4 minutes behind jeremiah bishop who ways like 145. And that was on a long sustained climb.
Ask @Dairyman how much weight matters. He has like 90% of the hartshorne and huber koms. I think he was around 215 when he got most of them. I had a lot before hin and I weighed around 215-220. I still can’t pr some of those older times. I was big, strong and had massive power. I think power to weight only matter when the grade get above like 15%.
 

pooriggy

Well-Known Member
Team MTBNJ Halter's
I did a 1 hour climb at the beginning of stoopid 50. I am 195lb currently and stuck 4 minutes behind jeremiah bishop who ways like 145. And that was on a long sustained climb.
Wow Dave, if you didn't kill yourself at the beginning of that race maybe Jeremiah would not have beaten you by almost ONE HOUR.
Let me say this nicely, stfu Dave:)
 

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
Power to weight ratio is a huge part of it, that is if you can neutralize the other factors. The other factors being type of bike, knowledge on the trail and your cycling fitness.

Also, your Hightower isn’t the best climbing geo. Sure, it can climb, but you would climb faster on a blur (and not just from the 8 lbs less bike weight) simply from the position that is better for climbing.

Your cycling conditioning is a huge part too. It is a combination of aerobic conditioning, pedaling technique/cadence and conditioning all those connectors and stuff that are hard
To condition at the gym. Sets of 20? for quad work, well with a cadence of around 90 rpm, that is less than a min of cycling work.

I am sure @Mountain Bike Mike can provide good advice as it baffles the f out of him for a year or two how I don’t gym, am fatter than him, and could easily bury him climbing. *note, this is not nearly the case any more, HE IS AN ASSASSIN NOW.
 

Dave Taylor

Rex kwan Do
Wow Dave, if you didn't kill yourself at the beginning of that race maybe Jeremiah would not have beaten you by almost ONE HOUR.
Let me say this nicely, stfu Dave:)
I didn’t kill myself on the climb. I rode just fast enough so I could drop Tony at the top. I’m just saying. Power to weight matters but being a big guy u can offset the weight with huge power.
 

Dajerseyrat

Well-Known Member
I didn’t kill myself on the climb. I rode just fast enough so I could drop Tony at the top. I’m just saying. Power to weight matters but being a big guy u can offset the weight with huge power.
So do more squats so I don't have to stop eating pizza?
 

Pearl

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
Hmmmm. I’ll agree to disagree. I used the weight excuse a lot. My ftp isn’t great and an example...last weekend I did a 1 hour climb at the beginning of stoopid 50. I am 195lb currently and stuck 4 minutes behind jeremiah bishop who ways like 145. And that was on a long sustained climb.
it's not really an excuse, it is what it is. i think you're missing the point. you put out more of an effort/watts at your weight (whatever it is) compared to him at 145. it's just math.

in very rare cases would you PREFER to be heavier in the cycling world, maybe a track sprinter or 0 elevation gain crit racer?

Ask @Dairyman how much weight matters. He has like 90% of the hartshorne and huber koms. I think he was around 215 when he got most of them. I had a lot before hin and I weighed around 215-220. I still can’t pr some of those older times. I was big, strong and had massive power. I think power to weight only matter when the grade get above like 15%.
weight doesn't matter if you have the power/fitness to overcome it. again, all i said was my 300w at 150 vs your 300w at whatever your weight is... lets just guess, 185. i'm mathematically not working as hard. you have an extra 35 pounds you are lugging around with you.

@Dajerseyrat, just ride your bike as much as you can and eat SLIGHTLY better than you did before. it will happen if you want it to.
 

Dajerseyrat

Well-Known Member
I do agree that weight has a huge factor in it. If you simply look at the required caloric intake for an athletetic 225lb man vs an athletic 155lb man, the bigger guy would require way more calories, so he has to be expending more energy.
I would be curious if any 165lb guys would be willing to do an experiment and wear a weighted vest adding 50 lbs and climbing a familiar trail and see how their times reflect.
 

Pearl

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
It would totally have a difference. The problem with cycling is everyone’s engine is unique.

Hell, when I go for a walk with L man in the Ergo, I feel like I walk slow as shit lol
 

Dajerseyrat

Well-Known Member
I kind of find climbing fun because it challenges me and my body. It's like a personal battle every time I climb a hill for the first time. When I first started riding again, my 3rd ride was Hartshorn and I couldn't clear most of the climbs. Fast forward a few months and I have cleaned every climb in the park that I have attempted. It's a good feeling.
 

Patrick

Overthinking the draft from the basement already
Staff member
some math -

the expenditure of power over time is energy (not over in the math sense, it is the sum of the area under the curve,
in the case of constant power, the area is a rectangle, so just multiple power*time) -
the tank is only so large, although it is constantly being filled, the filling never matches the consumption rate.

energy consumption(production) is linear with weight, and the square of velocity.
so to hold the same speed as someone that weighs 25% less than you, it costs you 33% more energy (think them 150, you 200, then the extra 50 is 33% of their weight)

the only reason to be heavier is to go downhill - or if it allows you to produce more power per unit weight.
 
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