The Tourne Gets Sanitized

I am not an advocate in any way so I'm going to sound like an idiot for asking this question. But has the state ever considered setting up a waver program similar to what they require for climbing? Yes, this would require permitting fees, and upset some people, but at least we wouldn't have to deal with BS like this. And yes, I know, Tourne is not a state park so my question holds no merit anyway.
 
Glancing Aft said:
I am not an advocate in any way so I'm going to sound like an idiot for asking this question. But has the state ever considered setting up a waver program similar to what they require for climbing?
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Not a bad question....but most townships, counties, and the state are trying to cut budgets. Your idea would create new positions in the govt. (clerical, enforcement,etc.) which is opposite of what they are trying to accomplish. Besides, a good lawyer can, unfortunately, get around waivers.
 
ytc100 said:
I appreciate that you feel that what you're saying is well founded and meaningful. I know that you only have the best interest of mtn. bikers in mind too. But...

I personally don't think much progress has actually been made in Morris County through any official channels. The only progress that has been made has been initiated through the desperate frustration of mtn. bikers building rouge trails that have become accepted as official trails. Yeah Lewis Morris re-routed a few trails but frankly for all the work that goes on there a lot of the park is still 4' wide rubble.

I'd like to see the statistics on the number of law suits filed by mtn. bikers injured at parks. Do any of you know anyone who has ever filed a law suit because they got hurt riding some trail somewhere? I personally feel this is a giant heaping load of poop and not a reality at all. This fear is a tool used to control the use of the parks by the people who don't want to share them with mtn. bikers. If it was a legitimate problem the other parks in the state would not allow any of these obstacles to be built either.

You have to ask yourself why rogue trails are a problem. I think it's because the official channels are slow, frustrating, and unsympathetic. I guess I am just ignorant about the whole process but it seems inefficient and bogged down with unrealistic concerns and favoritism.

I don't know what it took for WMBA to get done what they have done but don't you think that if NYC can do this New Jersey should be able to?
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I'd ask that you check out this link and "the ugly" section. It explains a lot.

www.imba.com/resources/trail_issues/you_play_you_pay.html
 
Glancing Aft said:
I am not an advocate in any way so I'm going to sound like an idiot for asking this question. But has the state ever considered setting up a waver program similar to what they require for climbing? Yes, this would require permitting fees, and upset some people, but at least we wouldn't have to deal with BS like this. And yes, I know, Tourne is not a state park so my question holds no merit anyway.
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i'm not familiar with the waivers for climbers, but waivers in general are difficult to enforce and effectively useless in an envirnment that is not fenced in and regularly patrolled/monitored.
 
mergs said:
Moving on to a broader yet related topic... this state is hobbled by the mere *threat* of lawsuits, and all parks have legitimate liability concerns due to this.
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Mergs -- I have to ask -- by doing TM, does JORBA open itself up to lawsuits by some blood sucking scumbag POS lawyer??? Or are we covered by the state for our volunteer work?
 
ytc100 said:
You have to ask yourself why rogue trails are a problem. I think it's because the official channels are slow, frustrating, and unsympathetic. I guess I am just ignorant about the whole process but it seems inefficient and bogged down with unrealistic concerns and favoritism.
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Just a qick resp to why rouge trails are a problem, and this is not from a land managers point of view but from a volunteer's...typically they are not well constructed. Point in case, the trails that have shown up in DP. Obvious issues include...sections that are off camber, which will lead to the trail becoming wider; adding rock gardens, which are not stable and not anchored; ramping logs, with small branches that get kicked out; creating three or more entrances to a short section of trail, can someone say spiderwebs; sections that are way too steep without diverting water before and after; this is just a short list.

Why are these problems, because after a season or two we have a bad trail, and they move on to make more bad trails.

Keep in mind I am not saying all rouge trails are built poorly, however most are.

Bob W
 
Bob W said:
Just a qick resp to why rouge trails are a problem, and this is not from a land managers point of view but from a volunteer's...typically they are not well constructed. Point in case, the trails that have shown up in DP. Obvious issues include...sections that are off camber, which will lead to the trail becoming wider; adding rock gardens, which are not stable and not anchored; ramping logs, with small branches that get kicked out; creating three or more entrances to a short section of trail, can someone say spiderwebs; sections that are way too steep without diverting water before and after; this is just a short list.

Why are these problems, because after a season or two we have a bad trail, and they move on to make more bad trails.

Keep in mind I am not saying all rouge trails are built poorly, however most are.

Bob W
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Sorry I was referring to the problem that rogue trails are being built at all, not the way in which they're built. I agree that the rogue trails I've been on are not always correctly built. I appreciate the work that goes into proper planning and building of trails and I do think it's important to have experienced trail builders doing TM.
 
I didn't have time to read all the links but....

Why can’t we all just get along?!!!!

It's like little kids....we must learn to share....the woods belong to everybody. We all want to have fun.

If I had enough money I would buy a huge piece of land and deny access to all the hikers!!!

Hikers are very selfish and don't want to share the land. Is it just me or does this seem to happen in counties that are very wealthy? They should stop being crybabies....big deal, you got scared one day because a mt biker was racing down. Shit happens. Deal with it. If you are on the highway and a big trailer cuts you off, do you start a movement to ban all trailers from the highway!?!?!? There are many other examples out there. And just for the record, I always yield to hikers and horses.

One of the few things I miss about my country is the actual FREEDOM to go ride or hike wherever you want without the risks of being frowned upon by anybody or fears from lawsuits and whatnot.

I guess the only solution will be to have mountain bikers in office so they can issue mtb friendly laws & regulations.
 
ytc100 said:
Sorry I was referring to the problem that rogue trails are being built at all, not the way in which they're built. I agree that the rogue trails I've been on are not always correctly built. I appreciate the work that goes into proper planning and building of trails and I do think it's important to have experienced trail builders doing TM.
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Both sides feed each other's frustrations in this situation. The slow-turning wheels of bureaucracy frustrate riders, and riders who decide to take matters into their own hands only serve to further slow legislation surrounding trail access.

I used to ride with a few guys who were balls-to-the-wall about everything they did and would frequently flout established trails in favor of blazing their own paths or riding in forbidden parks (SoMo!)*. They saw it as an expression of their defiance of authority, etc. etc. This is the kind of crap that has to be cut out of the MTB community.

We may be able to get the county parks on our side by proving we are willing to eat our own. Curbing the go-rogue tendencies of jackasses who think they know better, and engaging in better education of young riders/new riders will prove we can take care of ourselves.

*it grates on me when I hear people talking about riding there even though it is not permitted. I want to stand up and shout "What's wrong with you, dummy!" but I find combating Jackass mentality is very difficult.

Elzoller, to be sure, hikers can tend to be holier-than-thou in their approach to trail access. I had a co-worker once who made his personal Mission from God to remove any and all trail obstacles built by mountain bikers. He would go to Ramapo and Ringwood and Allamuchy with tools specifically for the purpose of removing such things, because he said the feet of humans, horses and animals are the only thing that should ever touch the trails...our community has to reach out to Hikers as well.
 
Jersey_Girl_Rides said:
because he said the feet of humans, horses and animals are the only thing that should ever touch the trails...
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did this fool ride a horse to work by chance? perhaps a llama? that is such a self serving statement. actually, this guy destroying stuff makes me think:

what is the liability of parks if approved obstacles are illegally removed? say the rocks from the other side of a tree roller constructed by the good folks of JORBA are 'removed'...clearly that is not an act of nature. where does the liability lie with that**? or are folks just SOL?

**i'm assuming that there is none unless there are photos of an individual actually doing it, but i'm trying to make a point. i hope.
 
"He would go to Ramapo and Ringwood and Allamuchy with tools specifically for the purpose of removing such things, because he said the feet of humans, horses and animals are the only thing that should ever touch the trails..."

what a load of crap......!! Before highways there were trails, I don't think he has a problem driving his car on a highway where A TRAIL used to be. Things change. Move on.

Oh and other thing about the liability....the only person liable is the mountain biker. Stop trying to blame somebody else for your inability to clean an obstacle being man made or not. Ride as per your limitations and walk it when not sure. If you decide to try something and fall, well it was your decision to try it, why trying to find blame? If you see something (an obstacle, etc) walk it first if not sure, check if it is stable. Don't expect everything to be 100% in "working" order. Conditions change and even a man-made obstacle that has been approved and built to spec can fail, it is simple "wear and tear". I agree that people can't just go out there and build trails, but c'mon a couple of rocks or logs here and there!! I am not talking about a 10' teeter totter in the middle of the woods!! It is stuff that is already out there in the woods (rocks & logs), it is just "re-arranged"
I've fallen many times, endo-ed, etc, and I don't think it was ever the log's or rock's fault, it was MINE!! big deal.

So next time you see a fallen log, don't build up a ramp, bunny hop it, that way they will leave it alone ;)
 
elzoller said:
"He would go to Ramapo and Ringwood and Allamuchy with tools specifically for the purpose of removing such things, because he said the feet of humans, horses and animals are the only thing that should ever touch the trails..."

what a load of crap......!! Before highways there were trails, I don't think he has a problem driving his car on a highway where A TRAIL used to be. Things change. Move on.

Oh and other thing about the liability....the only person liable is the mountain biker. Stop trying to blame somebody else for your inability to clean an obstacle being man made or not. Ride as per your limitations and walk it when not sure. If you decide to try something and fall, well it was your decision to try it, why trying to find blame? If you see something (an obstacle, etc) walk it first if not sure, check if it is stable. Don't expect everything to be 100% in "working" order. Conditions change and even a man-made obstacle that has been approved and built to spec can fail, it is simple "wear and tear". I agree that people can't just go out there and build trails, but c'mon a couple of rocks or logs here and there!! I am not talking about a 10' teeter totter in the middle of the woods!! It is stuff that is already out there in the woods (rocks & logs), it is just "re-arranged"
I've fallen many times, endo-ed, etc, and I don't think it was ever the log's or rock's fault, it was MINE!! big deal.

So next time you see a fallen log, don't build up a ramp, bunny hop it, that way they will leave it alone ;)
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That is the attitude that was present when America was founded - personal responsibility and all that...and I agree with you 100%. However, our current cultural climate fosters entitlement, and everyone is looking to have someone else make up for their personal inadequacies, and make a quick dollar on every perceived wrong done to them.

You are railing against something more fundamentally ingrained and wrong than just issues of trail access...Keep fighting the good fight, brother. And teach your children well - they may be the only hope to bring reason and sanity back to the public sphere.

Jake, I should hope that some sort of Equal Protection clause is in place w/r/t issues of hikers/horseback riders altering trails as well. Note, I said hope EP is in place. The burden of proof lies on the accuser, though, so unless you want to install Closed Circuit TV to watch the trails, you may be SOL when it comes to arguing your case. And I refuseto live in an Orwellian state. I would Cool-Hand-Luke those CCTV posts :D
 
anrothar said:
so he hiked barefoot then and only supported trail use by un-shod horses?
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this guy is a total nutcase anyway. He also thinks that bathing yourself on a regular basis is a sign of neurotic behavior; he does not use soap or deodorant; he thinks every person is mentally ill because we live in houses and wear clothes and drive cars...

he rationalized the fact that he has to wear shoes, drive a car, etc. by saying he is being sucked into the social conventions of mentally ill people as a survival mechanism.
 
Late To The Party

As some of you know, I am one of the very few leading up the TM work at Tourne.

First off I want to say,We were NOT told these Stunts were being removed, and our work is not near that section. I will say, we were under impression the Parks Commission VERY STRONGLY felt a lawsuit was waiting to happen (due to the stunts), and that may have Closed Tourne to ALL BIKERS.

Second; I am very disappointed to hear they actually felt they needed to take them out. Everyone enjoyed the stunts; either watching or trying not to fall off: "clippless on the lower elbow log was plain terrifying, and the skinny on top was near impossible until just last weekend." Let's not forget the designers: I am sure it is very hard for someone who spent hours working on that project enjoyed by so many; see it cut up and tossed away! And equally frustrating, those who never made it across, to not get the chance to complete it. Trust Me!! I feel you guys, I am going to miss them as well!

So, lets try to keep in mind what these stunts were in the beginning: a fallen tree a big rock, Rocks are (hint) "NATURAL, and can't be removed, Logs rot and according to IMBA should never be used for construction." So in about 1-2 years all those stunt would have been abandoned anyway.

With that, why not take a walk up to the new new trail.. you might notice something interesting; big sweeping turns, maybe a few hand built rock rollers!! Yes, they were approved by the parks commission during construction and are considered Armoring the section.. And if they are tampered with.. that's considered vandalizing the park. And that is how we do it legally!

The Tourne has been off the radar for a long while, but with the completion of Lewis Morris's new trails, they are putting focus on Tourne.. This will lead to may changes.. And with the Support of Riders, and telling them about our technique of riding. Those changes will be for the best.

Again, thank you guys for your support for Tourne. And: COME OUT FOR TM, Make the place like you would like it.
 
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