The Indoor Cyclist's support thread

[Pampa]

Anyone here use IFit ? The outdoor rides look pretty amazing / motivating.

vs peloton. ?

thx

Probably doesn't help since it's not cycling, but my two cents. My wife uses ifit with her treadmill and she loves it. She does rides with coaches (video of them running them and the treadmill adjusts tilt and speed). I know there's a ton more stuff but I haven't used it since I like to run outside more.

 

[trener1]

I don't have experience with the Flux but from what I have heard it's a decent trainer.
I believe that Tacx has a app that you can use with your phone.
If you have a Garmin you can control via that as well.

 

[GreenMachine]

Probably doesn't help since it's not cycling, but my two cents. My wife uses ifit with her treadmill and she loves it. She does rides with coaches (video of them running them and the treadmill adjusts tilt and speed). I know there's a ton more stuff but I haven't used it since I like to run outside more.

Yeah it looks pretty awesome - I’m looking @ a Nordictrack or proform bike ( same company) - I have read about some lag from ifit .
I know peloton is the premier app but spin classes indoors doesn’t appeal to me .

 

[Patrick]

Probably doesn't help since it's not cycling, but my two cents. My wife uses ifit with her treadmill and she loves it. She does rides with coaches (video of them running them and the treadmill adjusts tilt and speed). I know there's a ton more stuff but I haven't used it since I like to run outside more.

i'm waiting for them to add elliptigo to zwift..i guess ifit has the market cornered?

 

[Pampa]

i'm waiting for them to add elliptigo to zwift..i guess ifit has the market cornered?

View attachment 146869

I run into these fairly often around here. Last time the guy was going up a long (1.3 mi) hill. It surprised me because it looks like you can't put out much power since your feet are not secured to the platform (so you can't pull) or increase the cadence at a lower power - I couldn't see gears. Maybe they have a rohloff...

 

[GreenMachine]

i'm waiting for them to add elliptigo to zwift..i guess ifit has the market cornered?

lol apparently

 

[GreenMachine]

Close enough...

You have to admit this seems better than video game zwift or a studio:

 

[Patrick]

I run into these fairly often around here. Last time the guy was going up a long (1.3 mi) hill. It surprised me because it looks like you can't put out much power since your feet are not secured to the platform (so you can't pull) or increase the cadence at a lower power - I couldn't see gears. Maybe they have a rohloff...

internally geared shimano - it works well because you can't put too much torque on it!!!
with the small wheels, the low gearing works well for going up!

 

[Pampa]

Help with FTP test on "smart" trainer, please

So, I got my trainer going (Saris H3) and did a couple of rides controlling it via my Garmin Edge. The easy rides (recovery) were fine. Then I tried doing an FTP test. It all went well until we got to the 20 min interval at/above my previous FTP. I couldn't sustain the power that the trainer set for me. My cadence started falling and the trainer was increasing the resistance to maintain the output at target level. This actually killed me faster since I'm a spinner.

The structured workout on TP specifies a range around my current FTP (90% to 120% of previous FTP) so, when I was doing the test on my "dumb" trainer (CycleOps Fuild 2 + Powertap wheel), I could adjust the power via cadence and gears to try and push it, while not having to drop off the test because I couldn't sustain the effort. The new trainer decided on a value that seemed difficult to achieve for me but I still went for it (previous FTP: 229W, target power for 20 min section of test: 239W). I got to 15 min and I couldn't hold the 239W anymore, so I cut the test short.

Can these trainers be "programed"/directed to work on a power range, rather than a specific value? My guess/hope is that, once you hit the minimum power, the trainer would give you control of the power output until you hit the top part of the range. I tried editing the workout on the Rouvy Workout App and they only allow one value (target). I tried editing this workout (FTP test) on Garmin Connect and it send me to TP to do that. It looks like the power range info gets converted to a single value by Garmin, or that Saris does that. Any ideas/advice?

Thanks!

 

[trener1]

I am not a big fan of doing a FTP test with erg mode on.
I really think you should do a test in sim mode, sounds like you are using rouvy, so find a route that has a fairly long and steady grade (rouvy has tons of those) then after a solid warm up, just hit one and go as hard as you possibly can for 20 minutes, and use those numbers.

 

[iman29]

This article talks about erg mode and Zwift but the same idea applies and you will want to disable it during your test so you don’t end up in the “spiral of death”
spin which is what you experienced.

All About Erg Mode in Zwift

How it works, and when to use it.

zwiftinsider.com

I have a dumb trainer so no firsthand experience but also read up on a Ramp test which is also a way to measure FTP and doesn’t require you crush yourself for an hour.

Last year I did an Ramp test and compared the data to a TT race I did which was about 20 minute effort for me and the resulting calculation of my FTP after the ramp test was within 10 points of each other.

Hope that helps.

 

[Pampa]

hmm, interesting. I was using that structured test because I've used it a few times earlier this year so I have something to compare to. However, I've been reading about a new approach to FTP testing that's more along the lines of what you say. I'm more interested now in finding out a truer measure of my FTP than in compare numbers to previous tests. I might try this over the weekend.

 

[trener1]

I think lots if articles/programs have the test with erg mode because it gives them something to write about or put into their program, but I am convinced that if you want a "real" measure/test you got to do it with erg mode off and just give it your all. and see where the numbers fall, might be lower then you wat or might be higher but in any case it will be real.

 

[Pampa]

This article talks about erg mode and Zwift but the same idea applies and you will want to disable it during your test so you don’t end up in the “spiral of death”
spin which is what you experienced.

All About Erg Mode in Zwift

How it works, and when to use it.

zwiftinsider.com

I have a dumb trainer so no firsthand experience but also read up on a Ramp test which is also a way to measure FTP and doesn’t require you crush yourself for an hour.

Last year I did an Ramp test and compared the data to a TT race I did which was about 20 minute effort for me and the resulting calculation of my FTP after the ramp test was within 10 points of each other.

Hope that helps.

Good info in this article. Thanks.

 

[Pampa]

I think lots if articles/programs have the test with erg mode because it gives them something to write about or put into their program, but I am convinced that if you want a "real" measure/test you got to do it with erg mode off and just give it your all. and see where the numbers fall, might be lower then you wat or might be higher but in any case it will be real.

What I like of doing this on a trainer is the constant conditions. However, I like the idea of doing these tests outside because you get real data, starting by using the bike I use outside (a bikepacking rig), which is totally different than the bike I have on the trainer (a Tri bike w/ longer crank arms). I have a tough climb nearby that takes me close to an hr to do, without respite. Several times during the year Garmin and TP identified new a FTP for me in that climb. The thing is it's full of hairpins and has a lot of traffic since it leads to a scenic view point. In winter it's even trickier if there's snow (common). Also, other people told me that FTP measured from hard climbs would give you an overstated value (not sure why).

Anyway, hopefully, I'll be able to work with a coach soon that has some interesting ideas/protocols for this.

 

[Hakimaki]

Help with FTP test on "smart" trainer, please

So, I got my trainer going (Saris H3) and did a couple of rides controlling it via my Garmin Edge. The easy rides (recovery) were fine. Then I tried doing an FTP test. It all went well until we got to the 20 min interval at/above my previous FTP. I couldn't sustain the power that the trainer set for me. My cadence started falling and the trainer was increasing the resistance to maintain the output at target level. This actually killed me faster since I'm a spinner.

The structured workout on TP specifies a range around my current FTP (90% to 120% of previous FTP) so, when I was doing the test on my "dumb" trainer (CycleOps Fuild 2 + Powertap wheel), I could adjust the power via cadence and gears to try and push it, while not having to drop off the test because I couldn't sustain the effort. The new trainer decided on a value that seemed difficult to achieve for me but I still went for it (previous FTP: 229W, target power for 20 min section of test: 239W). I got to 15 min and I couldn't hold the 239W anymore, so I cut the test short.

Can these trainers be "programed"/directed to work on a power range, rather than a specific value? My guess/hope is that, once you hit the minimum power, the trainer would give you control of the power output until you hit the top part of the range. I tried editing the workout on the Rouvy Workout App and they only allow one value (target). I tried editing this workout (FTP test) on Garmin Connect and it send me to TP to do that. It looks like the power range info gets converted to a single value by Garmin, or that Saris does that. Any ideas/advice?

Thanks!

1. I recommend turning off ERG mode for an FTP test. The trainer will adjust resistance according to cadence, so it will feel "harder" at low cadence. FTP tests should be governed by feel anyways rather than a target number. We all want our FTPs to be higher, but realistically our bodies don't always agree.

2. Power meter readings can vary up to 5% I've read. Most with 1-2%. I recommend testing with one source, and using that source to rule all future workouts. So if you were using the H3, your 239W could've actually have been 249 if compared to your powertap. Your previous of FTP of 239 was your powertap FTP, it may or may not translate to the H3, sounds like not. Also consider a loss of fitness as a factor in the inability to hold your target power. We are technically in the "offseason" so a drop in FTP will be expected (depending on your structure). Power meters only need to be consistent with themselves, so stick to one as your main source of training data.

e.g. My 4iiii on the roadie is my primary source of power for training. My kickr, quarq, P1 pedals, and powertap hub all differ at different power ranges. I went through a painful comparison process using PerfPro and made a lil spreadsheet to compare the differences so I have general idea. But that's also subject to change depending on environmental temperature and meter calibration. But honestly it doesn't make much difference as all my structure is done on the roadie power meter, everything else gives similar numbers and I use RPE to govern effort. I know what endurance feels like so if its 195 vs 200 watts, it doesn't make a difference because you're training an energy zone, not a specific wattage.

 

[Hakimaki]

What I like of doing this on a trainer is the constant conditions. However, I like the idea of doing these tests outside because you get real data, starting by using the bike I use outside (a bikepacking rig), which is totally different than the bike I have on the trainer (a Tri bike w/ longer crank arms). I have a tough climb nearby that takes me close to an hr to do, without respite. Several times during the year Garmin and TP identified new a FTP for me in that climb. The thing is it's full of hairpins and has a lot of traffic since it leads to a scenic view point. In winter it's even trickier if there's snow (common). Also, other people told me that FTP measured from hard climbs would give you an overstated value (not sure why).

Anyway, hopefully, I'll be able to work with a coach soon that has some interesting ideas/protocols for this.

My understanding of overestimating efforts on hard climbs or time trials for that matter is that you're probably riding over threshold that entire time. Events or hard climbs provide the motivation one needs to go all out and give that extra something, but it doesn't mean they were riding at ftp. FTP isn't your "hour power", rather a physiological state that ranges between 30-80 minutes (depending on literature).

 

[trener1]

My understanding of overestimating efforts on hard climbs or time trials for that matter is that you're probably riding over threshold that entire time. Events or hard climbs provide the motivation one needs to go all out and give that extra something, but it doesn't mean they were riding at ftp. FTP isn't your "hour power", rather a physiological state that ranges between 30-80 minutes (depending on literature).

Actually I would respectfully disagree, true FTP is an hour of power. most people don't use an hour for a test because it's really difficult mentally to suffer for a full hour also it be can really challenging to find a stretch of road where you can lay down a full hour without any interruptions whatsoever, hence the 20 minute test was born.
However IF you have the both the mental fortitude to spend a full hour deep in the hurt locker and a good place to do it then that will give you the best numbers.
The trainer would work but again it comes down to if you can stand doing an effort like this on the trainer.

On side note @Pampa, I am a coach, just in case you are looking.

 

[shrpshtr325]

Actually I would respectfully disagree, true FTP is an hour of power. most people don't use an hour for a test because it's really difficult mentally to suffer for a full hour also it be can really challenging to find a stretch of road where you can lay down a full hour without any interruptions whatsoever, hence the 20 minute test was born.
However IF you have the both the mental fortitude to spend a full hour deep in the hurt locker and a good place to do it then that will give you the best numbers.
The trainer would work but again it comes down to if you can stand doing an effort like this on the trainer.

On side note @Pampa, I am a coach, just in case you are looking.

this 100% FTP is defined as your max power output for 1 hour, these tests that we are discussing are ESTIMATES of your FTP based on different test idealogies, 20min has been the most popular, at least among people that I ride with, and i believe it was what Friel pushes in his own athletes. The best representation of your FTP would be a 1 hour time trial, which i don't know too many people who will go out and do that on a regular recurring basis.

another note, if you finish and FTP test and still have something left in the tank you did the test wrong, you should be completely spent at the end

 

[Hakimaki]

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-physiology-of-ftp-and-new-testing-protocols/

This will give you an insight into the physiology of FTP and where I am basing my comments from.

Also, from Coggans "Racing and Training with a Power Meter" he states, and I paraphrase as I don't have the book on hand (I'm at work), he defined FTP as the power one can ride at a quasi-steady state for approximately one hour. Its essentially the point where fatigue occurs much faster if you go above it, and much slower if you're under it. This can be seen as an inflection point on your power duration curve.